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Features / Usability

Features / Usability


Is Tikiwiki what I need?

posts: 3

Hi

I’m a graphic designer about to go it alone and set up on my own.

Before I install Tikiwiki and send hours playing about with it can anyone tell me if I would be able to use it to do the following: -

As part of my website, I want to set up an area for clients to log in where they can do the following...

See progress of their ongoing jobs (via notes that'll I'll post) and allow them to reply to the notes.

Send and receive files.

Make a payment online (through paypal).

Talk to me live through 'Help Center Live' or similar system.

Thanks

posts: 9 United States

First though, do you have lots of time to wade through the maze of files these guys have created if you plan on customizing to any great extent and are you prepared for working with a huge hunk of software that has woefully inadequate documentation.

After a lot of time my first critique of Wiki is: great software with powerful potential but this project seems to have little control at the helm as it seems to be collage of code that is very hard to decipher if you are not a developer.

To have a ton of .tpl's that seem to meander everywhere without a visual tree or flowchart mapping out connections seems to me to be rather a huge oversight. We have ALLLL of these other features that these guys want to work on but the entire thing lacks any real discernible structure for designers or modders.

In my honest opinion this rather brilliant piece of software may end up wilting on the vine over time due to user frustration if these devs don't get a handle on just how to create a platform that has a discernible structure to the backend for non-hardcore programmers. This is exactly what Smarty was designed for yet Smarty's power it not being fully utilized which is sad.

If anybody here has modded XCarts you know that that system is based on Smarty/PHP and those guys have a great way to show how the .tpl's for each page is connected and nested to allow for editing of .tpl's rather than just spending gobs of time hunting for these stupid things as well as the accompanying PHP.

posts: 8 United States

> First though, do you have lots of time to wade through the maze of files these guys have created if you plan on customizing to any great extent and are you prepared for working with a huge hunk of software that has woefully inadequate documentation.

I'm in basic agreement with jonreb's assessment of Tikiwiki. I would just add that not only is it a brilliant piece of software with tons of great functionality, but, because of this, it is worth undertaking the difficult task of learning your way around in it. We use Tikiwiki at the pharma research lab where I work for the online Help (which I set up and maintain) of our major internal application. Here's my experience. It took quite a bit of effort just to get the system set up and a lot of this was indeed due to having to figure most of it out on my own with minimal (though some) help from the doc. I really don't fault anyone for this. Hey, it's freeware and it's a development system. My one big gripe about the design, though, is that you usually have to configure a feature on three or four different Admin pages (not always easy to find either — there are a ton of them!) So Admin navigation is definitely not fun or easy. But once you get used to this and "learn the ropes" you will discover that Tikiwiki does everything you want and more. The functionality is just incredibly rich and getting richer with every release. Lots of luck!

--John

posts: 3

Thanks for the replies!

Do you think maybe Tikiwiki is a little over the top for my requirements?

Can anyone recommend anything simpler and quicker, bearing in min I'm a designer with only little back-end knowledge?

I'd need each client to have there own individual area where they could see their jobs details only, would this mean multiple installations for each client?

Is it possible to customize the clients pages so that it doesn't show the Tiki logo?

Thanks again

posts: 4656 Japan

> Thanks for the replies!
>
> Do you think maybe Tikiwiki is a little over the top for my requirements?

Not necessarily. Of course it's overkill regarding features, but that's true for just about all users.

> Can anyone recommend anything simpler and quicker, bearing in min I'm a designer with only little back-end knowledge?

I don't really think you need back-end knowledge to use Tiki, or anyway not much. If your modifications are only style-related (and you want a custom theme rather than one that is already written for Tiki), you only need to be concerned with a few of Tiki's files. You'll need to have a new CSS file, and tiki.tpl or tiki-top_bar.tpl may have to be modified, depending on what you want the pages to look like.

That said, I'm sure there are simpler web backends available, but don't know which ones offer the page permission feature that you want.

> I'd need each client to have there own individual area where they could see their jobs details only, would this mean multiple installations for each client?

No, only one installation is needed. You can create a "group" for each client (Tiki assigns permissions on a group basis, even if the group has only one member), make the client a member of that group, and then assign view permissions for wiki pages, image galleries, etc., to the respective groups. Site visitors other than the particular client won't be able to see those pages, etc.

> Is it possible to customize the clients pages so that it doesn't show the Tiki logo?

Absolutely. See the sites/themes mentioned in my other post in this thread for some ideas of what's possible. smile

-- Gary

posts: 4656 Japan

> First though, do you have lots of time to wade through the maze of files these guys have created if you plan on customizing to any great extent and are you prepared for working with a huge hunk of software that has woefully inadequate documentation.

It's true that the docs haven't kept up with development, and the docs that were written deal mostly with using Tiki features, not customizing. Actually Tiki hasn't been around for all that long, and probably the breadth of the features has made it harder for docs and other support to keep up than is the case for smaller, specific-purpose tools. The sheer number of contributors has probably also had a down side in terms of code organization and interface consistency and clarity. But I believe the core developers are aware of these issues.

> After a lot of time my first critique of Wiki is: great software with powerful potential but this project seems to have little control at the helm as it seems to be collage of code that is very hard to decipher if you are not a developer.

The "collage" is fairly straightforward once you come to grips with how it's organized. I'm not a developer (i.e., trained PHP coder) but by looking at the files and reading forums, etc. I've gotten fairly adept at Tiki modding, at least in terms of page layout, etc. See phinixi.com, cunningham-lee.com, and zukakakina.com for example. Well, I like working out the problems involved (brain aerobics wink); on the other hand, somebody who needs a fast solution with minimal messing around may well be frustrated by Tiki as it stands right now. There are also Tiki Experts around to help people for whom time is money (not to excuse the opaqueness for do-it-yourselfers, but just as an alternative).

> To have a ton of .tpl's that seem to meander everywhere without a visual tree or flowchart mapping out connections seems to me to be rather a huge oversight. We have ALLLL of these other features that these guys want to work on but the entire thing lacks any real discernible structure for designers or modders.

Like I said, there's a method to the meandering, but it isn't necessarily clear at first. Have you seen MoreNeatLayoutSchema and HowDidTheyDoIt?

>If anybody here has modded XCarts you know that that system is based on Smarty/PHP and those guys have a great way to show how the .tpl's for each page is connected and nested to allow for editing of .tpl's rather than just spending gobs of time hunting for these stupid things as well as the accompanying PHP.

I tried to have a look but all their information and user forums are customers-only. confused (This is x-cart.com, right?)

Tiki right now isn't the tool for every job or every person. Some CMSs are no doubt easier, by design, to extend in terms of functionality than Tiki is (bitweaver is a Tiki fork reworked for extensibility, for example), so that's something the potential user has to evaluate.

I'm pretty sure that the docs will be continuously improved and Tiki will get easier to use and modify. There seems to be a new effort to get blanks filled in at doc.tikiwiki.org, and I'm also planning to add info, etc. at my Zukakakina site and here at the How They Do It page. Mods.tikiwiki.org should get back up eventually, too.

-- Gary

posts: 1092

Just a little note to Gary
mods.tikiwiki.org is back. Thanks to mose. In its simple version, just the list of all the mods that are available and the tar. It is a usuable copy of the cvs repertory.
Also the mods server on tikiwiki.org (you can asscess with admin->admin mods) is back too. Thanks to mose.
> I'm pretty sure that the docs will be continuously improved and Tiki will get easier to use and modify. There seems to be a new effort to get blanks filled in at doc.tikiwiki.org, and I'm also planning to add info, etc. at my Zukakakina site and here at the How They Do It page. Mods.tikiwiki.org should get back up eventually, too.


posts: 2881 United Kingdom

I do exactly this using TikiWiki and on damosoft's websites

Damian


posts: 3

Thanks for the replies!

Do you think maybe Tikiwiki is a little over the top for my requirements?

Can anyone recommend anything simpler and quicker, bearing in min I'm a designer with only little back-end knowledge?

I'd need each client to have there own individual area where they could see their jobs details only, would this mean multiple installations for each client?

Is it possible to customize the clients pages so that it doesn't show the Tiki logo?

Thanks again


posts: 9 United States

I don't want my post to be read as overly-critical of TikiWiki. I am investing the time and energy into TikiWiki in order to gain the necessary knowledge needed to utilize this software to its fullest and I am coming to a better understanding everyday but macacomoco's question seem to come from the standpoint of someone who really needs a more out-of-the-box solution for his/her project.

And I felt is was necessary to give him a bit of a reality check to help assist him in making a better determination.

GARY: XCart's forum is customer based. But if you ever have the opportunity to see how they have utilized Smarty for modders I think you will see exactly where I am coming from in my critique about the .tpl layouts here at Tiki. Coming from XCart's .tpl system (and it, too, is open-source to a limit) of using .tpl's to Tiki's .tpl system is kind of a let-down.

I guess my whole point is what's the point of using .tpl's which are designed for non-developers like interface designers and modders when it is a pain just to find how they are structured along with the code. When Smarty is used right linked .tpl's are super easy to find. Here at Tiki you need to invest a lot of time just to get the backend structure worked out which is really a bit unnecessary IMHO.

But that is the difference between XCart which is more user-centric due to the fact that they do make some money on the code and here at Tiki where the software seems to more developer-centric in that I think the code reflects more of a programmers mindset.

But in the end Tiki is a remarkable work in progress which I do hope will evolve over time to be more user-centric. I am at this moment spending a lot of time developing a Tiki site so I have my face planted quite deep in Tiki rich soil which is a reflection of just how good I think the software really is.


posts: 9 United States

Gary-

Here is the template debugging screen that XCart uses. I had to blur out a lot of the details since it exposes my backend information and I don't know who trolls this forum.

If you look closely you can see the nesting process of the .tpl's as well as the variables for each page underneath (which is a list much too long to include here). This window pops up with the appropriate info no matter where you are in the site. And can be turned on and off like Tiki's debugger.

So editing .tpl's and using variables for logic is a cinch this way.



posts: 9 United States

Sylvie,

My God, this will be awesome if this works! Thanks! The Tiki people may want to consider informing people of this in their template editing documentation.

Sorry I went off topic in your thread macacomoco- It is all inter-related somewhat but I do apologize anyways.


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