[20:33]<musus> welcome!
[20:35]<beerlounge> hi, moment
[20:35]<musus> no prob
[20:36]<musus> for example.. look now
[20:36]<musus> oops
[20:36]<musus> sorry
[20:46]<beerlounge> so, where were we
[20:46]<beerlounge> Did you decide sth yet?
[20:46]<beerlounge> Are the logs online? :)
[20:47]<musus> i dunno if the log is online yet, but we are being logged
[20:47]<musus> i'm setting you up with op status
[20:48]<beerlounge> what for?
[20:49]  *** musus shrug
[20:49]<musus> lol
[20:51]<beerlounge> he he
[20:51]<beerlounge> then: yes, please
[20:51]<musus> ok :)
[20:51]<beerlounge> Is this channel going to be an institution?
[20:52]<musus> what do you mean by institution?
[20:52]<beerlounge> gonna be open forever
[20:52]<musus> ah, yes
[20:53]<beerlounge> cool
[20:55]<musus> it's registered
[20:58]<damian> yoyo
[20:59]<musus> yo yo
[20:59]<musus> damian!  somethin's wrong
[20:59]<damian> wassup?
[20:59]<musus> every time i go to register the channel, it says i don't have ops
[20:59]<musus> and when i try the guard command, it doesn't work
[21:01]<musus> now it's behaving differently
[21:03]<damian> ok you have registered the channel?
[21:03]<musus> yeah
[21:03]<musus> registered
[21:04]  *** ChanServ joined #tikiaccess
[21:04]  *** kornbluth.freenode.net sets mode +o for #tikiaccess ChanServ
[21:04]<musus> w00t!~
[21:04]<damian> yeah :)
[21:04]<damian> just see how it goes, its not too important at this stage
[21:05]<musus> are there options i need to set with chanserv for guard?
[21:05]  *** musus nods
[21:05]<damian> oh you could try /msg chanserv access #tikiaccess add damian 42
[21:05]<musus> sly devil
[21:06]<beerlounge> Is chanserv some kind of ... channel server?
[21:06]<damian> nono, with your nick
[21:06]<damian> yeah it sits around in the channel and makes sure no-one can hijack it :)
[21:06]<musus> lol
[21:06]<musus> heheh
[21:06]<musus> i was just kiddin with ya :)
[21:06]<damian> its no bother with this anyway, we can always move to another :)
[21:07]<musus> yep
[21:07]<damian> anyway, did musus fill u in on the details wilst I was bedtime story reading?
[21:07]<musus> (you've been added with 42, damian...still working on beer)
[21:07]<damian> go /op beerlounge
[21:07]<musus> nope.. hadn't gotten that far.. beer just got back
[21:07]<musus> ah, thanks
[21:07]  *** musus sets mode +o for #tikiaccess beerlounge
[21:08]<beerlounge> nobody told me anything! boohoo
[21:08]<beerlounge> no I was shopping
[21:08]<musus> beer has 42 too
[21:08]<musus> wanna do the honors, d?
[21:08]<damian> we should be cool anyway, cos mines always connected
[21:09]<musus> :)
[21:09]<damian> ok. well to sum it up we have had a bit of a heart to heart chat on jabber
[21:09]<musus> and once i'm back on my lan, i'll be good too
[21:09]<damian> got some good points across to each other
[21:09]<damian> and have a action plan 
[21:10]  *** musus nods... hopefully cleared up some hard feelings ;)
[21:10]<damian> we need to attack the accessability in small steps rather than jumping in with both feet straight away
[21:10]<damian> the idea is to split it the migration into smaller managable phases
[21:11]<damian> the idea being phase 1 to take image alt tags and get those correct
[21:11]<damian> then we can attack phase 2
[21:11]<damian> by doing this in smaller phases its much more manageable and will be more accepted by everyone.
[21:12]<beerlounge> Phase 1: img alt attributes ... Phase2 : ? .... Phase 3 : success.
[21:12]<damian> the first task before us is to get the current themes as accessable as we can
[21:12]<musus> you got it
[21:13]<musus> i'm in the process of making an WAIroadmap
[21:13]<damian> we need manageable chunks that we can handle rather than attacking everything at once
[21:13]<musus> ...er, anyone have a more catchy name?
[21:13]<damian> so first we attack those images, next we might do that thing with the table headers phase 3 something else small and manageable etc.
[21:14]<damian> roadmap sounds good.
[21:14]<musus> ok.  so, throw me suggestions on phrases
[21:14]<musus> er, phases
[21:14]<musus> i have alt, title, headers
[21:15]<damian> each component on a page that needs changing basically becomes a phase
[21:15]<musus> right
[21:16]<damian> beerlounge is that approach good with you?
[21:19]<musus> yo, beer!
[21:19]<beerlounge> sorry, one sec
[21:19]<musus> ok
[21:22]<musus> damian: how can we get WAIteam added to the category list?
[21:24]<damian> ask :D
[21:24]<musus> lol
[21:25]<musus> purdy please?
[21:26]<damian> under which category path would you like it?
[21:27]<damian> TeamDevelopment?
[21:27]<musus> umm... community/tiki teams/teamdevelopment/WAI Team?
[21:27]<musus> da
[21:27]<musus> er, yes
[21:27]<musus> (my russian slips out now & then)
[21:28]<damian> done!
[21:28]<musus> phat!
[21:28]<musus> thanks
[21:31]<beerlounge> The approach is good with me. I'm concerned about 2 things: first, e.g. adding attributes into <img> and <tables> would be one "session" for me personally (doing it while the fil is open) ... in that case I'd have to say to myself "no, let's stick to the plan, it might be not as great for yorself, but good for the project"?
[21:31]<beerlounge> and number 2 coming ahead
[21:32]<musus> take your time
[21:32]<beerlounge> So we actually do concentrate on theme musus now and make it accessible?
[21:32]<damian> the main idea is we do this slowly changing 1 thing at a time
[21:32]<damian> making sure we havent broke anything along the way
[21:33]<musus> is that ok with you, damian?
[21:33]<damian> its sad for developing but people actually use cvs now for production sites
[21:33]<damian> we have to work with that
[21:33]<damian> how far is musus theme into accessability?
[21:34]<musus> pretty far
[21:34]<musus> moreso than branch
[21:34]<musus> (they can be merged though, if needbe
[21:34]<damian> how many other changes have happened in it as well along the road?
[21:34]<musus> hmmm
[21:34]<damian> It certainly has rendering problems for me :(
[21:34]<musus> editing the stylesheet & templates
[21:35]<musus> damian: it's rendering correctly
[21:35]<damian> ok, i'll up and check again
[21:35]<musus> ...just not how it will ultimatel
[21:35]<musus> y
[21:35]<musus> you can look at adamshantz.com/tiki18
[21:36]<musus> that's up to date
[21:36]<damian> maybe working in these smaller steps we can actually attack the real world templates
[21:36]<damian> we need that roadmap before we decide
[21:36]<musus> i think the answer to beerlounge's question is yes, maybe ;P
[21:37]<damian> I for 1 need to see whats needed to be changed
[21:37]<damian> because it has to cause the minimum amount of disruption along the way if you know what I mean
[21:37]<musus> define disruption
[21:37]<damian> breakage
[21:37]<musus> hmm.. ok
[21:38]<beerlounge> So we are all working on theme musus in HEAD.
[21:38]<musus> in head, yes
[21:38]<musus> you'll find the files already there
[21:38]<damian> no, i'm maybe talking about the real tpls /templates now
[21:38]<beerlounge> damian: are you shaping templates, too? I thought you were a programmer.
[21:38]<damian> but attacking them in these smaller manageable steps
[21:39]<beerlounge> so now we need a long list with steps
[21:39]<damian> yes a long list.  shaping tempaltes?
[21:39]<musus> damian's working with us to implement the php-side changes so that things don't wreak (sp?) havok
[21:39]<beerlounge> working on them
[21:39]<beerlounge> ah cool
[21:40]<musus> am i correct in that, damian?
[21:40]<damian> by working together in smaller managable steps Im thinking we can get this done on the real work tpls
[21:40]<musus> damian: some of the changes i've made, you won't want to make to real templates
[21:41]<damian> like what?
[21:41]<musus> they're listed on http://tikiwiki.org/tiki-index.php?page=TikiWikiThemeDev
[21:41]<musus> particularly "class=form" & class=formcolor
[21:41]<damian> ok, one thing we cannot do, or we cant really do, is start renaming css tag names
[21:41]<musus> why not?
[21:42]<musus> if someone can edit the css, they can edit the css classes
[21:42]<damian> we cant rename we can add new tho, otherwise we break other themes
[21:42]<musus> damian: that's counter-productive to css
[21:43]<damian> i know but think in phases
[21:43]<musus> wait, back up
[21:44]<musus> currently, the themes have duplicate classes
[21:44]<musus> even classes that have different names, but the same exact attributes
[21:44]<musus> that's unnecessary
[21:44]<damian> but do they control different areas of tiki?
[21:45]<damian> one might be buttons in the blog and the other buttons in artivcles for example
[21:45]<musus> one of the objectives of the musus theme was to eliminate these repetitions
[21:45]<musus> if they have the same attributes though, it's unnecessary
[21:46]<damian> but it makes for good theme development
[21:46]<musus> let me give you one example
[21:46]<damian> allowing the user to customise every aspect of the display
[21:47]<beerlounge> customizing every aspect is  wonderful advantage. should stay
[21:47]<beerlounge> I'd just vote for a hierarchical solution, that replaces the current one ("not ordered").
[21:48]<musus> td.listgalheading {
[21:48]<musus> 	font-family:    Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
[21:48]<musus> 	color:   #FFA34F;
[21:48]<musus> 	font-size:   11px;
[21:48]<musus> 	font-weight:   bold;
[21:48]<musus> 	background-color:   #006699;
[21:48]<damian> if you compare subsilver.css which is a full tiki stylesheet to say a cutdown bluegreen one
[21:48]<musus> 	height:   25px;
[21:48]<musus> 	background-image:   url(subsilver/cellpic3.gif);
[21:48]<musus> 	padding-left:   2px;
[21:48]<musus> 	padding-right:   5px;
[21:48]<musus> }
[21:48]<musus> .listgalheading {
[21:48]<musus> 	font-family:    Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
[21:48]<musus> 	color:   #FFA34F;
[21:48]<musus> 	font-size:   11px;
[21:48]<musus> 	font-weight:   bold;
[21:48]<musus> 	text-decoration:   none;
[21:48]<musus> }
[21:48]<musus> this is silly
[21:49]<beerlounge> one is for the container, one for the content
[21:49]<musus> and td.showimage & div.showimage
[21:49]<musus> again, unnecessary
[21:49]<beerlounge> yes, kinda
[21:49]<beerlounge> yes, it is
[21:50]<musus> or..
[21:50]<musus> td.thisodd, or thatodd
[21:50]<musus> if you list every cell for every table in tw, your css is going to be HUGE
[21:51]<damian> yes, but we have to attack it/slimline it in small chunks
[21:51]<musus> that's what i'm saying
[21:52]<musus> this is what the musus theme began to do
[21:52]<damian> once we have made sure that the tag is no longer in use on the tpls then we can dispose of it
[21:52]<musus> so, i say we stick to that ideal
[21:52]<beerlounge> with a CVS Update *nothing* gets added online that is different or new from my disk, right?
[21:52]<damian> but at the same time, i wouldnt like to loose the amount of freedom we have in designing different areas at the moment
[21:52]<musus> yep
[21:52]<damian> cvs update is one way Server to you only
[21:53]<damian> cvs commit is the only method to get from you to the server
[21:53]<beerlounge> ok
[21:54]  *** musus waits
[21:56]<damian> so maybe a different approach, do we make musus theme a small fast css with its small fast tpls?
[21:56]<beerlounge> May be I'm not listening but ... why compromise if we do it all on a theme? I think we'd do much better if we are radical once we're through discussing, what we actually want to change. I THAT I wouldn't go all too radical though. Like CSS tables. But if we don't take the freedom of actually REworking theme musus, than nobody will go "yeah, cool, rock on". It'll just be another theme with colgroups nobody sees and alt-Attributes nobody cares about, and the CSS is easier to re
[21:56]<beerlounge> ad.
[21:56]<musus> that's the idea :)
[21:57]<musus> small, fast, compliant
[21:57]<damian> beerlounge  you wanna play with templates/*?
[21:57]<beerlounge> )
[21:58]<musus> damian: you asked me not to play with templates.  that's why i started the musus theme
[21:58]<damian> im thinking :/
[21:59]<beerlounge> It wasn't a joke? I thought it was a joke. As if templates are difficult and you don't want to play with them too much.
[21:59]<musus> heh
[21:59]<musus> may i say something?
[21:59]<damian> templates are not difficult, i just dont want to loose any design elements we current have
[22:00]<damian> sure musus its open brainstorming time
[22:00]<beerlounge> design elements?
[22:00]<damian> the ability to customise any particular part of the interface
[22:01]<musus> i know you guys don't have any proof of this, and there's really nothing i can do to prove it right now, but i really do know what i'm doing.  i'm very experienced with css, and i know these templates pretty well too.  i've spent alot of time examining them & seeing what we need.  ...if it's ok, i'd like to continue working on the musus theme instead of modifying the main templates so that we can avoid mucking up the cur
[22:01]<musus> rent version..
[22:04]  *** musus is done
[22:05]<musus> thoughts?
[22:05]<damian> ok, i was thinking more of taking small steps but working on the actual tpls. however, maybe whats needed are 2 sets, although i'm not sure how this is gonna work
[22:05]<musus> ideas?
[22:05]<damian> 1 set, the current set, templates/* which allows full control of every aspect
[22:06]<damian> musus set which is highly optimised and ready for speed
[22:06]<musus> we can still achieve full control via the musus theme
[22:06]<damian> and bandwidth considerations
[22:06]<musus> the best of both worlds is possible
[22:06]<damian> yes. you take the musus theme if you want full compliance, etc
[22:07]<damian> hopefully we can then backwork things into the other themes as tiki moves into v2.0
[22:07]<beerlounge> This to the point styling-ability can best be accomplished with some kind of hierarchical class-naming-system. I think that the current Tiki shows this very well, because it's not done this way, and not so great to manage.
[22:07]<musus> damian: we can make the musus theme identical to any other theme out there, but also make it compliant
[22:07]<beerlounge> Damn, sorry, I'm kind of lagging here I get distracted.
[22:08]<beerlounge> I vote for the msusus theme tune-up, makes it easy to compare, also (for others).
[22:08]<musus> heh.. tis ok
[22:08]<damian> ok, for 1.9, lets set the target of having musus theme ready with its optimised tpl's
[22:08]<damian> we can also offer some colour variation css files too
[22:08]<damian> to keep everyone else happy :)
[22:08]<musus> do we have a common understanding for what "optimized" means?
[22:08]<beerlounge> that's waht the list is for, right?
[22:08]<beerlounge> Step 1 to 3.
[22:08]<musus> optimized does not mean less features
[22:09]<musus> correct
[22:09]<damian> but the point being we will be shipping at least 1 accessable theme in 1.9
[22:09]<musus> right
[22:09]<beerlounge> a, speaking of schedules
[22:09]<musus> ?
[22:10]<damian> we have atleast 6 weeks before RC1 is out
[22:10]<beerlounge> when is 1.9 planned to come out?
[22:10]<damian> :)
[22:10]<beerlounge> 6 weeks huh ... /thinkin
[22:10]<musus> eep
[22:10]<damian> thats the first RC tho, not final!
[22:10]<musus> first rc should include this theme, no?
[22:11]<damian> first rc should really contain a good concept for it if not the whole theme
[22:11]  *** musus nods...ok
[22:11]<musus> do we have an actual date?
[22:11]<damian> if we can get the whole theme ready for rc1, we can offer colour variations etc 
[22:11]<damian> no
[22:11]<musus> ok
[22:11]<damian> redflo hopes 1.8 final before the end of Jan
[22:12]<damian> so I reckon mid feb would be good time for rc1 of 1.9
[22:12]<musus> gotcha
[22:12]<musus> i'll throw that in the roadmap
[22:13]<beerlounge> I'm in Brazil between 8th of February and 14th of March. That's in 3 weeks, and until then I've got pretyy much to do (tying up lose project-ends before going away) ... so that leaves besically around 3 weekends to work with you guys on the theme musus ... hm, not so much. I'm afraid I won't through in as much weight as I'd like to. For now.
[22:13]<damian> hopefully we can also attack a colourblind friendly theme :)
[22:13]<damian> any help is good beer. im musus will agree on that
[22:13]  *** musus nods 
[22:13]<musus> definitely
[22:14]<musus> :)
[22:14]<musus> you do what you can do
[22:14]<musus> :)
[22:14]<damian> anyway, i'm not expecting it to be just us 3 either
[22:14]<musus> that's all anyone can ever ask of you
[22:14]<musus> great.  ...i'll be mailing the list soon
[22:15]<damian> once we have the roadmap, guidelines etc setout, we go out and recruit and say this is what you got ta do
[22:15]<musus> aye
[22:15]<beerlounge> So musus, while you were getting to know the templates, didn't you think they are to complicated, a lot of times? Too hardcoded? Nice accessibility features like icon sets are hard to manage.
[22:16]<damian> fortunatly now, I'm using tiki alot personally and for damosoft and also at client sites, so I'm deep it in all the time
[22:16]<musus> yes, beerlounge
[22:16]<beerlounge> Thats like ... the spot where PHP and TPL meet. One example: I would like to write <img src={$helpiconimg} class={$helpiconclass} alt={$helpicontext} />
[22:16]<beerlounge> That would make working on it much nicer. What I mean is, not to put so much into the templates. It's full of hardcoded stufff that an admin can't control. With the example above I assume, it'd be nice and easy to use an ican set ... globally for a site, or once per feature.
[22:16]<musus> yes!
[22:17]<musus> oh, you read my mind!
[22:17]<damian> yes, you can do that with smarty_modifiers
[22:17]<musus> and then extend an interface to customize them
[22:17]<beerlounge> damian: you mean now, already?
[22:17]<beerlounge> yeah, lots of interfaces
[22:17]<damian> but we have to sort out which icons belong to tiki itself and which belong to integrated apps 
[22:18]<damian> yes beer, i can give you smarty_modifiers like that if you want 
[22:18]<damian> I can make them up in a couple of mins
[22:18]<musus> that'd be excellent, damian
[22:18]<damian> ok, thats where I come into all this
[22:18]<musus> oustanding
[22:19]<damian> you drain my php and smarty knowledge
[22:19]<beerlounge> Me ... nah. I'm like lots of admins out there, I think: CSS and webauthoring -- YES please; programming code? -- no, please.
[22:19]<damian> and let us drain your css :)
[22:19]<musus> lol
[22:19]<musus> "no, please" 
[22:19]<musus> heheheh
[22:19]<beerlounge> )
[22:20]<damian> actually, under templates/styles/musus how about having a /icons for theme related icons??
[22:20]<musus> sure
[22:20]<damian> we have to work with the current directory structure for now
[22:20]<musus> fine with me
[22:20]<damian> at least under whatever is decided with the core
[22:20]<damian> under=until
[22:20]<musus> when can be mod dir structure?
[22:21]<damian> so the modifier could check for /icons/xxxx if it exists good otherwise use the /img/icon one
[22:21]<musus> yes
[22:21]<damian> i think dir structure should be reviewed with the core changes
[22:21]<musus> ok
[22:21]<damian> i dont think the structure needs to come into accessability 
[22:21]<musus> mmmm... ok, fair enough
[22:22]<damian> we can attack structure seperately later on with core issues maybe for 2.0
[22:23]<musus> ok
[22:23]<damian> 1.9 we have the target of accessability in musus theme
[22:23]  *** musus nods
[22:23]<damian> if we complete my RC1 maybe we can rethink and add the next step whever that may be
[22:23]<musus> damian: what are we calling the img alt attribute?
[22:24]<musus> my=by?
[22:24]<damian> yeah :)
[22:24]<beerlounge> another CVS question ... now Tortoise tells me "conflicts" bla bla, some files I have to merge manually ... well I didn't want to, I just wanted the online versions, now I've got the <<<<<<<<< sign splattered all over some files. ;(
[22:24]<musus> gotcha
[22:24]<beerlounge> btw, I agree
[22:25]<damian> beer, never used tortoise, so i dont know :/
[22:25]<musus> beer, can you delete your old dir & start fresh?
[22:25]<beerlounge> good idea
[22:25]<musus> damian: what are we calling the various tiki icons?
[22:26]<damian> "tiki icons" i think is good
[22:26]<musus> $helpicon, $editicon
[22:26]<damian> keep it simple so people understand :)
[22:26]<damian> yes
[22:27]<musus> what else are there?
[22:27]<musus> er, is there
[22:27]<damian> well what else have you changed in musus theme already?
[22:27]<beerlounge> let's make a list with all possible "actions" that could require an icon ... also referring to possible future functions
[22:27]<damian> or what else are you planning on adding/changing
[22:28]<musus> we haven't included smarty tags for images yet
[22:28]<damian> there are all the smaller icons on wiki pages

[END OF LOG] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[22:28]  *** ChanServ sets mode +o for #tikiaccess beerlounge
[22:28]<musus> wb
[22:28]<damian> cool, chanserv test worked :)
[22:29]<musus> w00t!
[22:29]<beerlounge> I'm too fast with my escape key, sometimes. ... finger on the trigger
[22:29]<damian> wiki icons, forum icons, file galleries have icons for file types
[22:29]<musus> lol
[22:29]<damian> of course dont forget smilies :)
[22:29]<musus> heheh
[22:30]<musus> ok, more specifically...
[22:30]<musus> we have $helpicon
[22:30]<musus> $editicon
[22:30]<musus> $deleteicon
[22:30]<musus> $deleteminiicon
[22:30]<damian> print, export, save2notepad
[22:30]<damian> watch
[22:30]<musus> ok, $printicon, $exporticon, $saveicon
[22:31]<musus> $watchicon
[22:31]<damian> the zaufi module controls i guess could be themed thats arrows mainly
[22:31]<damian> $lock, $unlock
[22:31]<musus> mmm...can we keep with the icon on the end?
[22:31]<damian> yeah
[22:31]<damian> permission key
[22:31]<musus> (that'll help with keeping things from getting mixed up)
[22:31]<damian> spanner and screwdriver icon :)
[22:31]<musus> $permicon
[22:32]<musus> spanner?
[22:32]<damian> when you admin items
[22:32]<musus> ohhh
[22:32]<musus> ok
[22:32]<damian> the spanner and screwdriver together
[22:32]<musus> how about $configicon
[22:32]<damian> in FAQs we have a ? in a shoutbubble
[22:32]<damian> yeah thats good
[22:32]<musus> ("spanner" is what we call a wrench)
[22:32]<damian> :)
[22:33]<musus> isn't the "?" help?
[22:33]<damian> nono, its a question speach bubble
[22:33]<musus> oh ok
[22:33]<damian> look in FAQ Admin
[22:34]<damian> oh and that folder thats used on the menus
[22:34]<damian> the redo icon which refreshs the wiki cache
[22:34]<musus> $menufoldericon
[22:34]<musus> $redoicon
[22:34]<musus> $undoicon
[22:34]<damian> image galleries have a prev and next icon and a show in popup window icon
[22:35]<musus> $previcon
[22:35]<musus> $nexticon
[22:35]<musus> $popupicon
[22:35]<damian> and finally in the likes of moreneat on the topmenubar you have the personal preferences icon (the little person) and those 3 boxes for other links
[22:35]<musus> $tikimanicon
[22:36]<musus> ?
[22:36]<musus> :P
[22:36]<damian> no, $preficon for personal preferences
[22:36]<musus> ok
[22:36]<damian> i think we can be good at that list for now
[22:36]<musus> lol
[22:36]<musus> ok
[22:37]<beerlounge> You know, now I remember another thing that I thought about the <img> problem as an example. That it would be nice if there wasn't an image tag at all, but {$helpicon} ... like this, the admin could later in some interface decide, if he would rather display text or a flash movie in that place. While attempting to style his site, he'd know (from some manual), that he can access this icon in a certain hierarchy like: div.newsletter div.admin table.help form.help img.helpicon {.
[22:37]<beerlounge> ..}
[22:38]<musus> that's what i was saying before about extending it to an interface
[22:38]<beerlounge> yeah but that's impossible, if in the templates there's an <img> tag
[22:38]<musus> why?
[22:39]<musus> all you have to do is go <img src="{$helpicon}"
[22:39]<beerlounge> what if you want to display text or a flash movie? There's no img src=""
[22:39]  *** musus realizes the true power of smarty
[22:39]<musus> the alt displays the text
[22:40]<musus> and a flash movie...hmmm
[22:40]<damian> beerlounge make my life easy with these modifiers not hard ;)
[22:40]<musus> lol
[22:40]<beerlounge> Yeah ... well, what if you don't want the alt image, but a paragraph. :)
[22:40]<damian> but yes, it is possible like that :)
[22:40]<musus> can you really do a flash movie for an icon?
[22:40]<damian> or like I prefer, WORDS!
[22:41]<musus> damian: we should include an option to turn off icons
[22:41]<damian> yes, once the modifiers are in place, thats possible
[22:41]<beerlounge> there could also be a Java Applet for an icon, why not ... but not if <img> is hardcoded.
[22:41]<musus> LONGDESC is what you're talking about beer
[22:41]<damian> yes, anything is possible
[22:41]<musus> ok
[22:42]<damian> have a look at banners, they are similar in the way they setup and work
[22:42]<musus> damian: can we make the smarty tags be customizeable for type?
[22:42]<damian> a banner can either be html code, text, image or something else
[22:42]<beerlounge> NO. I'm not talking about IMAGE replacement. I'm talking about admins that look at their very own site and go "hm, I don't like images, I'd like some flash movies or some paragraphs that say "help" and "save now" ..."
[22:42]<musus> type, as in, be it, image, flash, java, etc
[22:42]<musus> that's what i just suggested
[22:43]<musus> er, not suggested, but asked
[22:43]<beerlounge> I should look at the screen when typing.
[22:43]<beerlounge> )
[22:43]<musus> lol
[22:43]<damian> yeah banners have that kind of options on the admin screen :))
[22:43]<damian> maybe in the roadmap you can compare to that kind of setup in the icon theme maker
[22:44]<musus> ok
[22:47]<musus> can we identify objectives for the roadmap
[22:48]<damian> the main one is to get musus accessable
[22:48]<musus> (i'm going to need to hop offline in about 10 min for a couple hours.  but i'll have more of this done when i come back online
[22:48]<musus> right
[22:48]<damian> if we have time we can enter into the icon editing
[22:48]<musus> well, part of making it accessible is adding alt, title, etc
[22:48]<damian> so you thinking about makeing the icon editor in it as well?
[22:49]<musus> what do you mean by "in it"?
[22:49]<damian> as in having that feature in musus theme at the same time as completing accessibilty
[22:50]<musus> we'd be doubling our work to go back later & change it, no?
[22:50]<damian> yes, but remember the small steps needed
[22:50]<damian> they are all good ideas 
[22:50]<damian> but we need to think small steps to make them work
[22:50]<musus> i'd prefer not to do things twice
[22:51]<damian> ok, we can review the roadmap on that then when you get back :)
[22:51]<beerlounge> alt and title is much easier with a "maker" isn't it ... because it's automatic. No human errors.
[22:51]<musus> yes
[22:51]<damian> ok, maybe you can convince me on that :)
[22:51]<musus> lol
[22:52]<musus> VERY rough roadmap now available
[22:52]<damian> so long as its a basis we can storm with 
[22:52]<musus> oh, trust me... it's rough
[22:52]<damian> :)
[22:52]<musus> WAIroadmap
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[22:54]<musus> welcome, mose
[22:54]<damian> welcome!
[22:54]<pArAdRoId> hope im welcome though :D
[22:55]<damian> depends ;)
[22:55]  *** musus sets mode +o for #tikiaccess mose
[22:55]<pArAdRoId> on? D
[22:56]<pArAdRoId> *:
[22:56]<musus> do you know what accessibility is?
[22:56]<mose> even if not welcome you can just sit here without inconvenience for anybody
[22:56]<musus> this is true :)
[22:56]<pArAdRoId> is Laughing Out Loud musus
[22:56]<mose> so, it means you are never not welcome
[22:56]<pArAdRoId> well, in fact i just wanna help as i like your system
[22:57]<pArAdRoId> i dont know what you mean about accessibility
[22:57]<pArAdRoId> im a dumb german with some english from scool :D
[22:57]<pArAdRoId> �h
[22:57]<musus> you can look at WebAccessibilityInitiativedev on tw.o
[22:58]<musus> can we advertise #tikiaccess in the topic of #tikiwiki?
[23:00]<pArAdRoId> so whats the deal
[23:01]<pArAdRoId> reporting accessibilitybugs?
[23:01]<musus> did you read the page i suggested?
[23:01]<pArAdRoId> i watched on it and read some lines from what i considered urgent ;)
[23:02]<damian> lol
[23:02]<pArAdRoId> Validation
[23:02]<pArAdRoId> Testing Tiki
[23:02]<pArAdRoId> you dont expect me to read the whole thing do you? :)
[23:02]<musus> must run.  be back in a couple hours
[23:02]  *** musus quit Freenode : "finding my cave"
[23:03]  *** Unknown command : TRANSLATES
[23:04]--->> beerlounge translates you got "a couple hours" to read it
[23:04]<beerlounge> :)
[23:04]<pArAdRoId> yeah, thought so :D
[23:04]<damian> lol :)
[23:04]<damian> read it, read it again, and read it a third time to make sure you read it the times before :)
[23:04]<pArAdRoId> well, there are some tab-navigation-bugs i recognized
[23:05]<pArAdRoId> or call em inaccesibilitys
[23:05]<damian> tab-navigation, where and on what version?
[23:05]<pArAdRoId> loginbox
[23:05]<pArAdRoId> 1.8rc3
[23:06]<damian> and the problem?
[23:06]<pArAdRoId> the remember me checkbox
[23:06]<pArAdRoId> will be left out if you first klick into username
[23:06]<pArAdRoId> and then tabnavigate on
[23:07]<pArAdRoId> ah
[23:07]<pArAdRoId> sorry
[23:07]<pArAdRoId> im used to visualbasic
[23:07]<pArAdRoId> well, works fine :D
[23:07]<damian> lol
[23:07]<pArAdRoId> but doesnt it make more sense to move the checkbox up
[23:08]<pArAdRoId> above the button
[23:09]<damian> hmm, dunno i guess in a tabbed interface, but then you also have Stay in SSL Mode to take care of too
[23:12]<pArAdRoId> all the pages i know around have that sort of remember me checkbox below the button
[23:12]<pArAdRoId> thats sort of harrasing me
[23:12]<pArAdRoId> as you have to go backward again if you like to activate it
[23:28]<pArAdRoId> well, seems im not the right one in here ;) hf together :)
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[01:50]<musus> greetings
[01:53]<musus> ya leave for a couple hours & everyone disappears ;)
[01:59]--->> beerlounge crawls out
[02:00]<beerlounge> 'sup?
[02:00]<musus> beer!
[02:00]<musus> how's it goin?
[02:00]<beerlounge> smooth
[02:00]<musus> lol
[02:00]<beerlounge> had a beer, ate
[02:00]<musus> & well aged? ;)
[02:01]<beerlounge> I think I just finished a web"site" ... check it out: plingplong.org/likoer
[02:01]  *** musus links
[02:01]<beerlounge> It's in the last bugfixing stage and soon to be released .... the owner checks it over the weekend. :)
[02:02]<musus> nice!
[02:03]<musus> a little slow on the load, but i really like it
[02:03]<beerlounge> I think it's quite accessible ... the alternate stylesheet is a plain text one, and JS is only included if it exists.
[02:03]<beerlounge> It's below 30 K ... the server is superslow.
[02:03]  *** musus looks at source
[02:05]<musus> eh, except for a coupe minor things, yes.. very accessible
[02:05]<beerlounge> tell me the minor things. :)
[02:05]<beerlounge> if you've got time!
[02:05]<musus> yeah, of course :)
[02:06]<beerlounge> do you have a style switcher in Mozilla?
[02:06]<musus> not as far as i know
[02:07]<musus> minor things are.. "onclick".. while ok, isn't recommended because users without mouse capability are left unable to experience the effect
[02:08]<musus> typically, the suggestion is to place a comment saying what happens when that command is activated (but this is the "if the world were perfect"-type things)
[02:11]<musus> also, just out of curiousity, are you using stylesheets to change languages?
[02:11]<beerlounge> yes, in a perfect world I would have included alt attributes  ... that hurt, but I said, well the page should look good, IE just displays these alt's although that's not too cool, so I'll go without and people that don't fell comfortable with any aspect of the looks, ought to switch it of.
[02:12]<musus> ie displays the alts?
[02:12]<beerlounge> lil popups, yellow
[02:12]<beerlounge> The languages are changed by Apache ... it's called language negotiation. There's one *html.de and one *htmle.n in the dir ... whatever language the browser is installed in, the version gets send first. The switcher just links the file itself.
[02:12]<musus> even when you're not hovering over them?
[02:12]<beerlounge> only when hover
[02:12]<musus> ah, ok
[02:13]<musus> you know that's how alt is suppose to work, right?
[02:13]<beerlounge> but I put the fancy domTT, so hte double popup is strange
[02:13]<beerlounge> title is supposed to work like this
[02:13]<beerlounge> alt is not ... that why Firebird doesn't do it
[02:14]<musus> mmm.. 
[02:14]  *** musus agrees with beer
[02:14]<musus> i was thinking of previous html standards
[02:14]<musus> my fault
[02:16]<beerlounge> I'm just reading that JAWS vocalizes the titles, too. In favour of alt. Didn't know that.
[02:16]<musus> yeah
[02:16]<musus> jaws rules!
[02:16]<beerlounge> no, only when both are present
[02:17]<beerlounge> JAWS ist the quasistandard? I should download it
[02:17]<musus> quasi, yeah
[02:17]<beerlounge> Do you see the fading hover effects in plingplong.org?
[02:18]<musus> very nice!
[02:18]<beerlounge> ok. Opera doesn't show them
[02:18]<musus> it's a little buggy in moz, but it works
[02:19]<beerlounge> Wait til you seen it in IE. ;)
[02:19]<beerlounge> It wasn't commercial, so I didn't compromise. :)
[02:19]<musus> lol
[02:19]<musus> cool
[02:20]<beerlounge> "So, IE, you can't do position:fixed? Well, too bad for you ... my doc renders anyway you lil stinker, but different muaharhaar"
[02:20]<musus> LMFAO
[02:48]<musus> damian: you awake?
[02:58]<musus> beerlounge: still here?
[03:00]<musus> beer!
[03:04]<mose> hm.. gghg .. yes ?? beer ?
[03:04]<musus> LOL
[03:04]<mose> damn keywords
[03:04]<musus> hahaha
[03:04]<mose> :)
[03:05]<musus> say, mose, were you in here when we were coming up with the smarty declarations (right word?)
[03:05]<mose> no I was not here
[03:06]<musus> ah, ok.  i'm looking for a log & i'm not sure if/where damian keeps his online
[03:17]<beerlounge> I need this flash-if-my-name-is-mentioned plugin.
[03:18]<musus> lol
[03:18]<musus> what program do you use?
[03:19]<beerlounge> Miranda. :(
[03:20]<musus> ahh, yeah.  you can get the irc plugin
[03:20]<beerlounge> It's also my IM, so I thought let's give it a try, but it's pretty basic only. Nothing useful.
[03:20]<musus> the plugins can really extend things alot
[03:29]<mose> :P
[03:29]<musus> lol
[03:43]<musus> beer, do you have a log of when we started?
[03:48]<musus> beerlounge
[06:05]  *** Notice from  : *** Looking up your hostname...
[06:05]  *** Notice from  : *** Checking ident
[06:05]  *** Notice from  : *** Found your hostname
[06:05]  *** Notice from  : *** Looking up your hostname...
[06:05]  *** Notice from  : *** Checking ident
[06:05]  *** Notice from  : *** Found your hostname
[06:05]  *** Notice from  : *** Got ident response
[06:05]  *** Nickname is already in use. : snlr
[06:05]  *** Register first. : AWAY
[06:05]  *** Notice from  : *** Your host is sterling.freenode.net[freebsd.widexs.nl/6667], running version dancer-ircd-1.0.32
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[06:06]<musus> wb beer
[06:07]<beerlounge> hi; yea, I got a log from the beginning of #tikiaccess
[06:07]<musus> sweet!  can you post it to my userpage, by any chance?
[06:08]<musus> or your userpage..whichever
[06:15]<beerlounge> yours