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Features / Usability

Features / Usability


A poor decision by the Tiki Admins

posts: 220 Ukraine

Sorry, but have to comment - it was a very poor and inappropriate decision to move all the Tiki sites to Tiki 22.

There are other users to think about than yourselves.

Sure, you want to 'force' everyone to be a tester, however not everyone wants to (or has the time).

But more importantly, by updating all the Tiki 22 and 23 (which are for Testing and Experimental environments only, not production) you are demonstrating to the world the new development issues with Tiki - not the best 'foot' to put forward in a very competitive digital CMS / EMS segment.

Yes, every single piece of software from any organization that is updated will have new bugs. issues, etc., so it is completely understandable that TIki is no exception. This is a normal part of improvement. But, IMO, having first time, or 'sometime' users (on the edge of making a decision about using/deploying a product) experience 'Testing / Experimental' versions is not a wise decision.

Additionally, I believe the majority of serious production environments deploy LTS versions, not STS's, making it much more logical to leave all main Tiki sites on an LTS specifically to get feedback and information about the latest LTS (from both end users and Tiki Admins, who regularly use the Tiki sites).

Yes, keeping up, and even leading, is important, in an ever increasingly competitive software 'digital app' environment.

But in the absence of 100,000+ paid employees (e.g. MS, Apple, etc.), a solid, stable and polished product will not be in the form of the latest and greatest bleeding edge STS but from focusing on making the current LTS the best it can be.

Mike

posts: 126813 United Kingdom

Hi Mike

Sorry you experienced some issues with the Tiki sites, i hope you added bug reports to the wishlist on dev.tiki.org? wink

We have always run the Tiki sites on latest stable (since at least version 2.x) so this is not a new policy. We update them in order of "importance" with dev and tiki.org being switched over last, as in the past occasionally regressions have caused minor (ahem) data loss.

We eat our own dogfood!

In order to avoid frustration and embarrassment on our live sites for several years now we have been running "dogfood versions" of our main sites, such as https://next.tiki.org and https://nextdev.tiki.org where the forthcoming versions can be tested for months ahead of the release, unfortunately no one seems to have time to check these so we do find bugs on the live sites from time to time.

If you can think of any practical ways we can improve this system please let us know, obviously we don't want Tiki to look bad, but also we know of no better way of shaking the bugs out that using the latest version on our own sites to start with.

Hope it wasn't too annoying! mrgreen

posts: 220 Ukraine

Thanks for taking your time to reply - as one of the lead developers to Tiki your time is spread particularly thin.

Yes, of course, I definitely add bug reports - though sometimes I am hesitant until I can completely confirm it is not my particular Tiki instance that has the problems, or more likely, I have not configured something incorrectly.

With the amount of data and complexity of most software today, bugs, and even data loss are to be expected from time to time - heck, even Microsoft is famous for data loss with Win10!

Given the current development cycle (LTS + STS), my reason for commenting was to suggest that a greater accent should be placed on the LTS versions, particularly on publicly facing sites. To reiterate (and my opinion only), I believe that more enterprises use an LTS over an STS (if this option is available, see more below about this), as most enterprises have similar requirements - stability, few changes for end users and good security. All three are provided by an LTS, while an STS version can only provide the security aspect, because the whole idea of an STS is to push the boundaries and provide leading edge features. Tiki can have 2mn paid employees, and an STS will still have more issues than an LTS.

I understand why all the Tiki Admins like STS versions, and even prefer them:

1) because they have the tools to 'look under the hood' and see what's wrong, or, at least get an idea to ask other dev specialists to take a look. End users do not.

2) Dev's look at bugs as 'challenges', end users (and Managers of end users in an enterprise setting) typically just want to use the software as a tool to get work done, and so that their workflows are disrupted as little as possible.

That said, it's understood that all the Tiki Admins (who to the best of my knowledge) are all dev's, like STS versions better than LTS versions. All 'like-minded' thinkers, a homogeneous group (e.g. all drinking the same Kool-Aid) - however, we all know 'diversity' provides much better (albeit slower) decisions. Maybe eventually, as more people contribute, other non-dev types can be added to the Tiki Admins (e.g. Marketing, Community Coordinator, etc.). Eventually, I may volunteer my services (currently unable due to time commitments).

However, please don't mistake, I am extremely grateful to this awesome group of dev's who deliver a great product, and for free. The STS versions are extremely important, they play a vital role - but they have their place supporting an LTS, not replacing it.

Finally, 'outside of the current development cycle' is possibly another option - given the constraints of many smaller open source projects (e.g. contributors), many choose a 'Rolling Release' cycle. Quite popular with Linux distro's, though not sure how it would work with Tiki as all distro's have fairly well defined components.

In any case, a 'rolling-release' could significantly free up resources, improve overall quality and provide the best of both worlds, LTS + STS. Just a suggestion.

br,
Mike


posts: 8500 Israel
We eat our own dogfood!


😂 I answered to your comment Mike but I see it is gone !! ( a long answer)

A shorter one;
What problem do you have ?

Tiki ways are based on long experience (2004) and available resources.
Every one can bring up ideas and change things (accordingly to the other members of the community)

Stable versions are not experimentals, they are good for production.
Upgrading from LTS to LTS or from STS to STS are different strategies. Admins choose the one that is good to them. I tend to do STS from STS because I have less chances or tornados between upgrades... And I like new stuff.

What I remember...

posts: 220 Ukraine
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist wrote:
😂 I answered to your comment Mike but I see it is gone !! ( a long answer)


Hi Bernard,

Yes, your comment was sent my email so got to read it. Than, I went to reply and saw:
Screenshot From 2020 11 05 11 26 06

lol lol lol

While this may have completely nothing to do with the Community site being on the latest Tiki STS version (vs. an LTS), but it was totally funny how it worked out!!

Please see my comment above.

Br,
Mike

posts: 8500 Israel
Mike Finko wrote:

Hi Bernard,

Yes, your comment was sent my email so got to read it. Than, I went to reply and saw:
Screenshot From 2020 11 05 11 26 06

lol lol lol

While this may have completely nothing to do with the Community site being on the latest Tiki STS version (vs. an LTS), but it was totally funny how it worked out!!

Please see my comment above.

Br,
Mike


We changed the db engine so I guess it was just a bad timing.
Nothing to complain... volunteers are doing a great job. ♥️

Reading your answer and I really think that most Admins and User Admins are more conservatives than you say.

I don’t believe a lot of people are using Tiki22 on prod site (I do).

Still wondering what was your issue(s) to be pissed off. 😇