Karen Stingel: Hi Geoff

Marc Laporte: Hi everyone!

Karen Stingel: Hi Marc

Geoff Brickell: evening all

Geoff Brickell: or afternoon 😊

Karen Stingel: what about morning Geoff? it's 5 AM tomorrow here

Jean-Marc Libs: evening!

Marc Laporte:https://tiki.org/February+2013+Webinar

Daniel Gauthier: Hello all. I'm in listening mode

luciash d' being: +1

luciash d' being: from me

Karen Stingel: +5

Daniel Gauthier: +1

Geoff Brickell: +1

luciash d' being: btw, do you also get some audio loss ?

luciash d' being: bits here and there

Jean-Marc Libs: I like it, especially as I need to leave in an hour 😑

Karen Stingel: I seem to be getting a little, I just turned up headphones

Geoff Brickell: sound is good fro me

luciash d' being: great

Karen Stingel: quick question: do we still want the 'perpetual' showcase TIkis I've made available @http://tikishow.kstingel.com?

Marc Laporte: Karen: ok, I will add to the list for later

Karen Stingel: np 😊

Karen Stingel: nope, can't hear a thing 😉

luciash d' being: i havenßt seen any Allura problem so far recently

Marc Laporte: Jyhem: +1

luciash d' being: Jean-Marc: just use http

luciash d' being: instead https

luciash d' being: but it is not asking me for sf password anymore anyway, just needed it to insert once and now it somehow remembers

luciash d' being: i did seeral commits already and no ask for password

luciash d' being: *several

luciash d' being: http does not need any password - it is just checkout - one way

luciash d' being: no commit access

luciash d' being: i mean if you are just updating some sites, you should not need commit access there

luciash d' being: so http is fine

Karen Stingel: to update via SVN to a live server, you only need http access

Karen Stingel: you only need https when accessing to commit fixes and stuff

Marc Laporte: https://tiki.org/Migrate+to+Allura

luciash d' being: works for me so i do not need to contact SF to discuss Allura 😉

Jean-Marc Libs: For the record: The one that works for me consistently is the following:

Jean-Marc Libs: svn switch --relocate https://tikiwiki.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/tikiwiki/branches/6.x https://svn.code.sf.net/p/tikiwiki/code/branches/6.x .

Jean-Marc Libs: (note the '.' at the end

Jean-Marc Libs: )

luciash d' being: yay !

luciash d' being: kill that Flash ! 😊

Marc Laporte: http://www.bigbluebutton.org/blog/

Karen Stingel: luciash: +100

Jean-Marc Libs: /me hopes nobody uses IE6 any more 😊

luciash d' being: anybody here logged in to BBB with IE6 ? 😉

Karen Stingel: Chrome here (FF fights it)

Guest: omstefanov: Chrome here too

luciash d' being: FF Win 7 here

luciash d' being: (it is just quicker than my favorite Linux box 😉)

Jean-Marc Libs: \o/ etherpad functionality !!! 😊

Geoff Brickell: FF XP here

Arild Berg: Hi everybody

Marc Laporte: Quick report on TikiFestMuskoka

Marc Laporte: http://tiki.org/TikiFestMuskoka

Marc Laporte:http://tiki.org/Admins+Team#Essentials

Jean-Marc Libs: and let's make sure the list remains short 😊

Marc Laporte: http://tiki.org/Teams

Nelson: Hi Everybody, I have a sore throat today so resting my voice. WIll be typing more than talking 😊

luciash d' being: hi Nelson !

Greg Martin: Good thinking there Marc, et al

Jonny Bradley: all sounds good Marc, thanks

luciash d' being: why there is no Join/Leave button for Quality, Security and Legal team ?

Marc Laporte: http://info.tiki.org/Featured+Tikis

Karen Stingel: luciash: because we don't want you to leave?

Marc Laporte: http://tiki.org/Consulting+Team

luciash d' being: Karen: lol

Nelson: Yes Geoff, since you are one of the more prominent consultants, esp across the atlantic would be great to have your input and participation

Marc Laporte: Nelson: can you explainhttp://tiki.org/show.tiki.org next

Nelson: My throat is really bad today

Jean-Marc Libs: admin & security have mailing-lists

Jean-Marc Libs: not sure people can send mails to them

luciash d' being: Jean-MArc: i think they are not mailing lists, just aliases/forwarders distributed to several people

luciash d' being: ppl can send mail to the address

Nelson: Also, the whole bug reproduction process, whether release or not is not easy to do a lot of time.

luciash d' being: /me trying catch up to stay up-to-date at all his tiki instances maintained 😛

luciash d' being: i thought quick way to create bug reproduce/test profile would be great

luciash d' being: via tiki profiles i thought, but maybe it is not very easy

luciash d' being: some automation like show.tiki.org would be awesome for sure

Arild Berg: How long does it take to fire up a Tiki instance, to report a bug?

Nelson: The firing up of the instance should be pretty quick, 1 2 min

Nelson: 1/2 min

Nelson: but you still have to file a bug the usual way

Arild Berg: that's good

Nelson: and you have to recreate the bug on the test instance

Karen Stingel: would it be possible to 'push' Bug examples to tikishow.kstingel.com so we have a perpetual copy of open bugs?

luciash d' being: will a mail come "your instance is ready" ?

Arild Berg: How many simultenous "test instances" can be run?

Nelson: about 100 no problem

Karen Stingel: I have trunk, br6, br9 + br10 (andc later, br11) permanently avail

Arild Berg: sounds good

Nelson: the "your instance is ready mail", probbaly, it is not difficult to have

Olaf-Michael Stefanov: why not get your heads together, Geoff with his experience and the Marc-Nelson-Pascal idea

Olaf-Michael Stefanov: ... and come up with a join show-site concept

luciash d' being: that would of course not reproduce a "conflict of two features" bugs...

Nelson: push bug examples to "tikishow.kstingle.com": I don't get the question

Nelson: right now the plan is to persist until the bug is open

Olaf-Michael Stefanov:"http://tikishow.kstingle.com/" is not found?

Karen Stingel: at present, the show.tiki.org sites are temporary, so examples are lost ... my sites are permanent, so examples are always availalbe

luciash d' being: Karen: afaiu the instance will not close until the bug is closed

Nelson: I mean so long as it stays open

Nelson: but we can persist it longer

Arild Berg: Jonny: the "demo" should remain, until the fix is verified

luciash d' being: Karen: the temp ones are demo.tiki.org

Karen Stingel: I've looked at examples in the past and they've been gone

Olaf-Michael Stefanov: I tend to agree with Geoff. Keeping the fixed bug is good to prevent regressions

Nelson: The whole show.tiki.org discussion has a parallel automated testing discussion and the 2 will help support each other

Nelson: But one is not dependent on the other

luciash d' being: actually +1 for Karenßs idea to make it decentralized - like anyone could host his own version of show.tiki.org - same as one can host his own profiles site

Nelson: IN order to be cost effective with the testing, the fixed bug needs to be made into a test case, e.g. a selenium (not confirmed that it will be this) case

Olaf-Michael Stefanov: show.tiki.org would need to be a site that lets developers reproduce the bug on a site that many developers have access to

Nelson: decentralization is interesting, but I am wondering if technically it might be much more work... need to think more and we can discuss

luciash d' being: Nelson: sure, that would be next step but lets keep it on mind maybe

Jean-Marc Libs: I attended an amazing talk at Fosdem: https://fosdem.org/2013/schedule/event/testing_mediawiki/

Jean-Marc Libs: But I just looked up the videos, and it's not there 😑

luciash d' being: Nelson: could be used for developing customized tiki sites for clients

Nelson: it is planned to be used in "beta" for tiki 11

luciash d' being: cool

Olaf-Michael Stefanov: +1

Nelson: we'll be developing i. There will be a separate bbb held to discuss this soon

Arild Berg: How are the different show instances tracked/listed?

Nelson: if you habe any thoughts it shoulkd go to thte wiki page

Karen Stingel: https://tiki.org/show.tiki.org

Geoff Brickell: thanks

Olaf-Michael Stefanov: nelson: which page,http://tiki.org/show.tiki.org ?

Nelson: each instance is a unique id, which can be stored in a field in the bug tracker

Nelson: http://tiki.org/show.tiki.org

Marc Laporte: can you hear me?

Olaf-Michael Stefanov: to whom does one send a request to set up an instace?

Nelson: Marc, I can't hear

luciash d' being: nope, Marc

Olaf-Michael Stefanov: marc can't be heard, jonny yet

Olaf-Michael Stefanov: yes...

luciash d' being: Marc, u dropped off of listeners

Marc Laporte: ok, brb

luciash d' being: perhaps ?

Jean-Marc Libs: Sorry guys, need to leave now (gotta meet customers)

luciash d' being: i heard some words jonny, but did not got it

luciash d' being: bye Jean-Marc

Olaf-Michael Stefanov: bye jyhem

Karen Stingel: cu jyhem

Jean-Marc Libs: /me suggests a refactoring freeze before releases.

Jean-Marc Libs: final bye bye now 😊

Olaf-Michael Stefanov: perhaps we need a special STAR list to "reward" developers who fix lots of bugs

luciash d' being: well, imho it is pretty solid and powerful anyway, despite the bugs

luciash d' being: the trackers

Olaf-Michael Stefanov: ... an incentive system

Jonny Bradley: brb

Nelson: hi

Nelson: did we lose marc?

Jonny Bradley: b

Olaf-Michael Stefanov: seems so

Olaf-Michael Stefanov: he's off the list

Nelson: Anyway, I could talk a bit about testing

Olaf-Michael Stefanov: please do!

Nelson: One of the things is that Alain (not sure who remembers him)

Olaf-Michael Stefanov: I do!

luciash d' being: we do, we do not smoke that shit anymore 😉

Nelson: he will be on sabbatical from his job (end Mar) and so

Olaf-Michael Stefanov: ... that Alain ... does what?

Olaf-Michael Stefanov: ... and so he's looking for things to do?

Nelson: anyway it coincide with my desparate need to have a better testing infrastructure for our tiki sites

Nelson: Of course Alain's knowledge is more at the higher level, but he can help with creating test cases and so on, so long as someone else sets up the infra

Marc Laporte: back

luciash d' being: great to have u back Marc !

Geoff Brickell: yep

Olaf-Michael Stefanov: One thing that could really help with better testing sites is an easier ways to copy pages, or even who groups of pages from a prod to a dev site and back

Karen Stingel: wb Marc

Nelson: So there will be some action on the testing front to have testing...

Nelson: Yes marc, you were cut off so I jsut started

Nelson: Excellent Geoff

Olaf-Michael Stefanov: +1 from me too

Nelson: I thihnk

Nelson: I would like to push and get infra ready by say July August or something

Olaf-Michael Stefanov: Geoff: Do you have your test/control site in 9.x or in several versions (I thought I heard "trunk")?

Nelson: and then after taht people can start creating/recording tests

luciash d' being: and the show.tiki.org ?

Nelson: show.tiki org will be first

luciash d' being: yep, when you think ?

Nelson: goal for show.tiki.org is to use it as part of the tiki 11 release process

luciash d' being: May/June ?

Nelson: yes

Nelson: May

luciash d' being: great

Geoff Brickell: Olaf: I have both trunk(11) and 10 - I've almost completed moving all my production sites to 9

Nelson: front end automated testing, in the line of selenium. For example selenium has a firefox plugin that allow you to record a test.

Nelson: basically a sequence of clicks and keyboard input and compare what comes back to what is expecteed

Nelson: maybe show.tiki.org can be used for that

Nelson: yes

Nelson: no, this will not be built into tiki

Nelson: becasuse this is front end testing

Nelson: browsers

luciash d' being: what is a typical test workflow ? does it test only code/syntax errors ? or can it catch security holes, or permission/preference check missing ?

Nelson: tiki tests is code testing

Nelson: both are important, and not mutually exclusive

luciash d' being: allright

Nelson: but generally the latest initiaive is on front-end testing

Marc Laporte: https://tiki.org/Testing+Team

luciash d' being: ok next topic: Karenßs question ?

Olaf-Michael Stefanov: Geoff, but you must have had the same test set for 9.x before you moved your sites off, right?

Geoff Brickell: right

Karen Stingel: cool .... O seem to be the only one using it at present

Olaf-Michael Stefanov: Geoff, so you could contribute your 9.x set right?

luciash d' being: yeah, CKEditor4 looks good

luciash d' being: did not checked it in trunk yet, but checked the CKEditor demos and links

Karen Stingel: possibly I'm the only user because other Devs haven't been aware of it

luciash d' being: Karen: yeah, marketing plays big role nowadays

Karen Stingel: lp doesn't seem to be here ... but I've noticed that the 'vendor' folder after installing Tiki-trunk seems unneccessarily large ...

Karen Stingel: do we need the full Zend package, or would just the librqay be better?

Karen Stingel: excuse typos 😊

luciash d' being: Karen: well there was always full Zend package, but now it is handled by the composer, maybe it includes more files

Karen Stingel: is CKEditor planned to be added to composer.json, or left as an svn external?

luciash d' being: Karen: we do not use all Zend stuff but several libs, yes, not sure which ones

Arild Berg: maybe the "full" version should be tried, instead of the "standard" download

Arild Berg: The standard download is in trunk

luciash d' being: http://ckeditor.com/builder

Marc Laporte: The current CkEditor 4 integration is based on the "Standard" download package. Seehttp://ckeditor.com/blog/Intro-to-Customizing-CKEditor-4 for more info. One important passage: "The Standard package doesn’t include plugins like Alignment, Font Size, Color and a few other typical buttons. Why? Because modern websites predefine those things in CSS to avoid low quality content. Users should not "play around" with formatting. Web standards are increasingly more focused on the semantic information of texts. The Standard CKEditor comes with all the necessary tools to create "good web content". The idea is teaching our users about the best way for a "better web", so we made Standard the default option."

Karen Stingel: I'm in process of mapping Zend libs used 😊 ... also possibilities for adopting zf2

luciash d' being: hi 😊

Jonny Bradley: hi Arild

luciash d' being: this is interesting:http://ckeditor.com/addon/bbcode

luciash d' being: but is 777 lines of code 😑

Karen Stingel: multiple talkers .. and everyone whispering ... bk in a sec

luciash d' being: we do not have even the Tiki 11 star name yet 😉

luciash d' being: wow, 10 days !

luciash d' being: could not we just shift the months cycle ?

Nelson: other than ckeditor there is not major revamp ongoing is there?

Nelson: the thing is that wysiwyg is probably a multiversion transition

Karen Stingel: I'm away this afternoon, for around a week

Nelson: if we do a quick release now, it is really almost a not very meaningful release, ljust to increment the numbers

Nelson: lol

Karen Stingel: but since I'm mainly tinkering in comments, being away doesn't matter much 😊

Marc Laporte: Pascal will create demo.tiki.org/wysiwyg-html/ and demo.tiki.org/wysiwyg-wiki/ and maybe demo.tiki.org/wysiwyg-jison-wiki/ so we can have a stable place to show off issues. We make more than one demo sites because the various modes are mutually exclusive and we need a place to show off issues for each.

luciash d' being: Karen: we will miss you on IRC 😊

Arild Berg: What about: demo.tiki.org/wysiwyg-jison-html?

Karen Stingel: luciash: I can always leave it open in Windon't and lurk 😉 ... just so you don't feel alone

Karen Stingel: ... or maybe so I don't miss anything lol

luciash d' being: how do we cope with all the new add-ons of CKEditor4 ?

luciash d' being: for example this:http://ckeditor.com/addon/codemirror

luciash d' being: would not it conflict with our CodeMirror libs ?

Karen Stingel: luciash: I'll check that once I get back ... I'm also trying to track any reported conflicts introduced via composer 😊

luciash d' being: tiki.ini

Marc Laporte: To hard code prefs:http://doc.tiki.org/System+Configuration

luciash d' being: do we use something special or basicali tiki synatx version ofhttp://ckeditor.com/demo#bbcode ?

luciash d' being: *basicaly

luciash d' being: *syntax

luciash d' being: for the "Use Wiki syntax in Wysiwyg"

Karen Stingel: stepping away briefly ....

luciash d' being: http://ckeditor.com/addons/plugins

Nelson: I always reduce the number of buttoins

Karen Stingel: bk

Marc Laporte: Please see: http://dev.tiki.org/tiki-download_wiki_attachment.php?attId=187

Karen Stingel: can I ask an off-topic question?

luciash d' being: Karen: go ahead

Karen Stingel: is content in /modules/cache safe to delete?

luciash d' being: yes

luciash d' being: clear all tiki cache should empty that

Karen Stingel: cool ... that solves my directory compare issue

Karen Stingel: luciash: doesn't work when I'm mirroring SVNtiki to DEVtiki webroot

Nelson: but, is it too much to ask for people who are running wysiwyg who have some blocker bugs to upgrade to tiki 11 that it is just not going to be fixed before tiki12?

Nelson: let me compare

luciash d' being: +10 for rock solid things

luciash d' being: :)

Nelson: just reduce the buttons problem solved

luciash d' being: a bit of self-promotion:http://tiki.org/blogpost553-Wysiwyg-Editor-Keyboard-Shortcuts-Did-You-Know

luciash d' being: Wysiwyg related 😉

Jonny Bradley: nice, thanks Luci! 😊

Nelson: right Jonny

Nelson: makes sense

Nelson: make it a dependency

Arild Berg: What about a question at install time? Wysiwyg or wiki mode editor as default?

Nelson: nice meeting you all!

luciash d' being: Arild: that sounds too specific... we should promote Wiki mode first maybe 😉

luciash d' being: you could have lot of questions asked at install times, like you want feature X ? Y ? Z ?

Arild Berg: maybe, but I was looking for a WYSIWYG system, when I first tried Tiki

Arild Berg: yes, could be more questions at install time

luciash d' being: Wysiwyg inserting and storing in Tiki syntax would be ideal

luciash d' being: by default

Arild Berg: I need html syntax in the database

Karen Stingel: how do I add topics to the Webinar wishlist?

Geoff Brickell: bye

Nelson: I agree with luci

Nelson: bye