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Roundtable Meeting 2021 11


Volunteering Facilitator: Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist

When

Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 15:00:00 UTC time (click to check time zone in your location)

Votes

Votes

Time in your timezone (when this page was last reloaded): Thursday 01 December 2022 01:26:57 CET

The time will be set by the participants vote:

Tiki Roundtable Meeting Time Votes

Voting ended:
18 Nov 2021 15:00 GMT-0000
21 Nov 2021 15:00 GMT-0000
24 Nov 2021 15:00 GMT-0000
25 Nov 2021 15:00 GMT-0000
3
7  
6
3

Where

What

See Roundtable Meetings for a detailed description.

Topics

First hour, quick topics

  1. Tiki security releases: News and status
  2. Should we consider supporting Fontawesome Pro?
    1. Questions: 1) Would that be philosophically compatible with an open source project? 2) Does "support" mean include in the Tiki package and use it in the interface, etc.? 3) Does the pro license allow freely distributing the pro icons? Seems like maybe not. From https://fontawesome.com/plans: "Pro is commercial software, so there are some restrictions. The biggest one is that you cannot distribute Pro to folks not specifically covered by your license (e.g. you can't provide the files in your open source public repo)."
    2. Related: Bootstrap also has an icon set now (https://icons.getbootstrap.com/). This could be added along with Bootstrap 5.
      https://themesberg.com/blog/bootstrap/bootstrap-icons-vs-fontawesome
  3. Tiki forums
    Encouragement to use the Forums
    1. Tiki indexes "recipes"
      1. In-a-InnoDB-populated-database-the-indexes-are-MyISAM?
      2. Solution for the index multiplication of constantly updated Tiki
    2. What is your solution to have user "private pages" ?
      1. https://tiki.org/forumthread77746-Can-we-have-user-private-pages?
    3. Help needed on Tiki.org forums (5 month old (!)
      1. Broken display for sub-forum
      2. Not-possible-to-move-discussions-in-forum
  4. How to deal with a bug that can't be easily explained (even the topic is hard to name 😂)
    Example; tracker field visibility, all my attempt to use it on Tiki 18 to 23 with plugin List or CustomSearch failed.
    It is very hard to reproduce, touches too many areas and combinations are endless.
    + Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist: Please demonstrate on a show instance. If it's not possible to configure via the web interface, just add a task on dev.tiki.org, and avan.tech and we will add it, as it's a priority to as much as possible via the web interface.
  5. Advanced Shopping Cart revamp for Tiki 24
    1. https://tiki.org/forumthread77720-Advanced-Shopping-Cart-revamp-for-Tiki-24
    2. https://gitlab.com/tikiwiki/tiki/-/merge_requests/935
  6. New (main?) chat room here https://gitter.im/tiki-org/community
  7. Fosdem will happen online again
    1. Who can prepare a presentation about a Tiki high point which will be appearing for end of January?
  8. Mailing Lists / Newsletter administration + moving of Email server -> we need a team to fix a number of issues
    mainly a temporary project or task force.. Who will participate, when we start, finalize at which deadline?
  9. Dogfood use of CalDav integration in tiki.org.
    Ex: Torsten subscribed the Tiki Community Calendar. Thus after the vote for the Round Table meeting Torsten automatically gets a new event to his Thunderbird and Android calendars. This is just awesome!
    Short description or demo optional (if enough time).
  10. Tiki and translations
    1. https://tiki.org/forumthread77726-Translations-documentation-updates
    2. https://dev.tiki.org/Contextual-translations
    3. https://dev.tiki.org/Translations-Revamp
    4. Translations - short here and postpone to December or today longer in 2nd hour?
  11. ...

put your topic (max. 5-10 minutes) into the list above

Second hour, longer topics

  1. Cookies consent status Cookie-consent-improvements
  2. Deeper discussion about How to Have Fewer Bugs in Tiki: What are the patterns of the bugs (most frequent and most nasty) (Marc) (45 minutes)

Recording

The recording of the meeting (webcam, screen sharing, and text chat) is available here: here.

Chat log

(Sorry about the extra characters — user icon initials.)

Remaining Time -2:46:17
1x
ro
rodrigolzd
00:00:31
Hi everyone
ma
Marc Laporte (marclaporte)
00:01:12
2022-02
jo
Jonny Bradley (jonnybradley)
00:01:46
Polom
je
Jean-Marc Libs (Jyhem)
00:02:00
Just normal non emergency delay :-)
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
00:03:03
Thanks for the bug report Xavi. as usual best if it goes to https://dev.tiki.org
xa
Xavi (as xavidp - admin) (xavidp)
00:03:35
I almost finsihed the bug report
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
00:03:39
ROFL
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
00:03:55
Thanks Bernard for making me giggle :-D
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
00:05:07
;-)
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
00:05:21
You look perfect Torsten 😂
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
00:05:38
Thank you Bernard
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
00:05:47
Hello everybody.
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
00:06:48
5 websites
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
00:07:00
And you need to give the url, name
xa
Xavi (as xavidp - admin) (xavidp)
00:09:44
FYI: https://dev.tiki.org/item7941-Configuration-Wizard-does-not-save-changed-prefs-since-Tiki22
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
00:10:10
Jonny, did you mean, by "support FA pro icons" just having some license key field and if enabled then support all the classes from the pro pack?
jo
Jonny Bradley (jonnybradley)
00:10:16
Thanks Xavier de Pedro
ma
Marc Laporte (marclaporte)
00:11:03
Ideally, forums should be public, so findable via search engines
ga
Gary Cunningham-Lee (chibaguy)
00:11:05
BTW, "Free, high quality, open source icon library with over 1,500 icons."
ga
Gary Cunningham-Lee (chibaguy)
00:11:11
(bootstrap)
gu
Guest: Gour
00:11:22
https://icons.getbootstrap.com/ - "Free, high quality, open source icon library with over 1,500 icons. "
ga
Gary Cunningham-Lee (chibaguy)
00:11:40
Heh, great minds think alike ;-).
jo
Jonny Bradley (jonnybradley)
00:11:53

+1 for "forums should be public"

gu
Guest: Gour
00:12:41

+1 for using forums more...what about brdiging tiki-user to forums somehow?

to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
00:13:26

+1 for most forums public ... there might be reasons to have a specific forum non-public, for ex maybe a security team forum

lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
00:15:07
Forums always were public except the one copying emails from mailing list to avoid leaking untreated email adresses against spam harvesting
jo
Jonny Bradley (jonnybradley)
00:16:39
/me still has no idea what sub-forums are for, or who added them, sounds like it was done badly (forums work fine for me)
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
00:18:18
That should be task for the developer/commiter to test it before release, no?
ma
Marc Laporte (marclaporte)
00:19:05
luciash d' being 🧙: "leaking untreated email adresses against spam harvesting" Is there a task for this?
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
00:19:55
We need some agreement how to communicate settings that are changed globally on a Tiki community website and why and how it should be
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
00:20:03
marc, not sure... lemme search the bug reports
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
00:23:14
It would be a good idea if we - including pointing to myself - would point a bit more energyto the Tiki forum posts and support users who ask questions.
ro
rodrigolzd
00:23:33
are the forums more active than the live chat?
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
00:25:26
marc: I do not see it reported in this category: https://dev.tiki.org/Wishlist+Search+Page?default%7Esearch=forum#cat=85
ma
Marc Laporte (marclaporte)
00:25:30
"That should be task for the developer/committer to test it before release, no?" Ideally, yes, and perhaps it worked at the time. But someone needs to follow-up with that developer.
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
00:26:09
not sure. They have been quite active, but once questions would be never answered there would be no point.
gu
Guest: Gour
00:26:13
if subforums are problematic, whyn ot just getting rid of them...some subforums do not have much posts, afaict
gu
Guest: Gour
00:26:33
...and continue using fforums which do work?
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
00:26:37
(was Rodrigo Primo)
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
00:26:41
marc but I am pretty sure it was in the gardeners blog
ga
Gary Cunningham-Lee (chibaguy)
00:27:10
Saša Janiška, I agree.
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
00:27:35
@all: do I understand right, that we deactivate tablesorter for forums on tiki.org for a preliminary time, cause s.th. is broken?
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
00:27:55
Bernard: I did not understand
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
00:30:26
back
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
00:30:31
Torsten Fabricius: according to this blog post yes, should be deactivated: https://tiki.org/blogpost883-TableSorter-was-deactivated
gu
Guest: Gour
00:30:46
as far as "mystical bugs" - have a template when reporting if it does not already exists, eaiser to provide demo showing and/or someone doing triaging...just a thought
gu
Guest: ibrahim
00:31:16
hello everione
ga
Gary Cunningham-Lee (chibaguy)
00:31:35
Hello ibrahim
jo
Jonny Bradley (jonnybradley)
00:31:39
Hi Ibrahim
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
00:31:56
hi ibrahim
gu
Guest: ibrahim
00:33:49
hello luciash
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
00:33:51
installation cannot be tested but I recall one or two other thing
gu
Guest: ibrahim
00:33:55
hello john
gu
Guest: Gour
00:34:56
Bernard: why not discussing "bug" in some communication channel - chat/list/forum?
gu
Guest: Gour
00:35:13
maybe i'ts just misundestanding of one's usage of Tiki
xa
Xavi (as xavidp - admin) (xavidp)
00:37:30
curious: there are 2 results at this search: https://doc.tiki.org/tiki-searchindex.php?filter%7Econtent=subforums
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
00:37:30
number of chats -> imho should be (re)merged to one central chatroom and optional subrooms based on topic, task or group
ro
rodrigolzd
00:37:33
so, i think bernard just said there are way to many communications channels options and that causes problems
ro
rodrigolzd
00:38:39
I never think of tiki forums and mailing list
ga
Gary Cunningham-Lee (chibaguy)
00:39:03
The situation around chat is messed up right now - kind of a transition phase, I think. But should improve in the future.
xa
Xavi (as xavidp - admin) (xavidp)
00:39:18
and I could only find relevant info on dev.t.o about subforums here: https://dev.tiki.org/item7765-Tablesorter-filter-is-misplaced-in-the-forum-should-be-below-the-subforum-list?highlight=subforums
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
00:39:40
Rodrigo Primo I agrree in respect of chat for example, which "helped" me to lose a bit connection to the community for a while and I find it hard to find back ... not too much, as I know the people and have some access, but I feel it quite complicated at this time.
xa
Xavi (as xavidp - admin) (xavidp)
00:39:43
so please whoever added that feature, drop some lines in doc.t.o at least
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
00:40:12
That's good news MArc !
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
00:40:15
thanks
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
00:40:31
gary I agree ... do you think I could any help or better just wait?
ma
Marc Laporte (marclaporte)
00:41:04
We will need testers in 3-4 weeks
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
00:41:06
Marc Laporte: cannot find it so I will fill in the bug report on dev
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
00:41:21
MArc I volunteer as usual
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
00:41:57
Hello to everyone (18 participats) ;-)
ro
rodrigolzd
00:42:11
live chat is the closest thing we have to being able to call a company when we have a problem. at least i feel like its what i get from live chat
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
00:42:43
Loool ... not yet working. It is less broken than it was. I love that type of description.
Thank you developers, honestly, you are doing a great job currently. We just have so much work.
Anyway ... Tiki is currently quite awesomeful developping.
Thx all.
ga
Gary Cunningham-Lee (chibaguy)
00:43:16
Torsten Fabricius - I was looking for some written info about the options, etc. but didn't find them yet.
xa
Xavi (as xavidp - admin) (xavidp)
00:44:16
The longer that we keep using email lists for our own communication (among devs in tiki-devel list besides de devel forum, and with users in tiki-users list besides the plenty forums shown in t.o) the less effort will be added to improve/fix our own solution for async communication using tiki forums for others.
ma
Marc Laporte (marclaporte)
00:44:55
https://xorti.gitlab.io/wikisuite-ppa/ and https://gitlab.com/xorti/wikisuite-ppa will be ready for testing in a few weeks
gu
Guest: Gour
00:44:56
xavi: +10
xa
Xavi (as xavidp - admin) (xavidp)
00:44:56
If we set a date to cancel email lists (convert them in read only), we will have efforst from the whole dev community to fix whatever is needed to make tiki forums usable
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
00:45:00
Oh, is there a Tiki Telegram group?
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
00:45:06
ha ha ha
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
00:45:09
Didn't spot :-)
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
00:45:13
Marc
I am currently settng up a number of Tikis for testing and trying stuff ... what tests you need - I did not get all audio.
I am currently focussed on Calendars, then Webmail and Kanban.
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
00:45:44
Matrix protocol is beoming quite popural I reckon
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
00:46:01
ok Gary. I try to collect and put stuff on a preliminary WikiPage and share.
ro
rodrigolzd
00:46:20
so, where is the real chat going on?
jo
Jonny Bradley (jonnybradley)
00:46:41
https://gitter.im/tiki-org/community
gu
Guest: Gour
00:46:45
rodrigo: probably, https://matrix.to/#/#tiki-org_community:gitter.im
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
00:47:03
I will announce it too then (list and social Network)
jo
Jonny Bradley (jonnybradley)
00:47:17
Also that - it's the matrix route to it
ro
rodrigolzd
00:47:21
talk about fragmentation. less is more
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
00:48:15
Marc ... testing WikiSuite ... I would need either a Computer or Raspberry or a websolution like VM
I think about, what I find shortly.
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
00:48:38
I think I did setup that one
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
00:48:49
let me check if I have admin / managing rights there
ma
Marc Laporte (marclaporte)
00:49:23
https://gitter.im/tiki-org/community
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
00:49:37
Tiki/Community
ro
rodrigolzd
00:49:57
this is just for tiki right? not wikisuite?
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
00:50:08
pjust tiki was not available
ma
Marc Laporte (marclaporte)
00:50:33
https://github.com/tikiorg
ma
Marc Laporte (marclaporte)
00:50:45
https://github.com/tikiwiki
ro
rodrigolzd
00:50:46
google search about tikiwiki sucks
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
00:50:49
I won't use anymore the Tiki "God" image I swear Gary 😎
ma
Marc Laporte (marclaporte)
00:50:57
https://gitlab.com/tikiwiki
je
Jean-Marc Libs (Jyhem)
00:51:15

+1 for trying a matrix-based solution. I have element as an android app and I find it rather usable.

to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
00:51:21
If there is no dot we could opt for dash.
Here I see a subroom of the tiki community
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
00:51:34
TikiTracker
xa
Xavi (as xavidp - admin) (xavidp)
00:51:34
"+1 for trying a matrix-based solution. I have element as an android app and I find it rather usable." me2
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
00:51:45
funny sounding iirc
xa
Xavi (as xavidp - admin) (xavidp)
00:51:49

+1 for tiki-org or tiki.org or similar

lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
00:52:02
on it
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
00:52:03
checking still
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
00:52:29
I think tikiwiki is professional, but it somekind limits expectations to wiki core feature.
We are not only a wiki
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
00:52:58
gary agree ... we are still aswell a versatile Tiki but not at all "only" a wiki"
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
00:53:50
tiki-org, tiki-community, tiki.org, tiki-org/community
xa
Xavi (as xavidp - admin) (xavidp)
00:54:04

+1 for jonny's proposal

to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
00:54:21
We should any know what are the options and the way it works in the specific software
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
00:54:37

+1 to jonny aswell

ro
rodrigolzd
00:57:39
make the name should be tiki-polom (LOL)
jo
Jonny Bradley (jonnybradley)
00:57:47
:-D
ro
rodrigolzd
00:57:49
maybe*
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
01:01:24
Marc: added you as admin there on gitter.im
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
01:02:18
I understand and that's fine.
I may be gladly join, I can't answer right now.
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
01:03:20
do we have a dead line ?
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
01:04:25

+1 Torsten

be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
01:04:34
Thank you
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
01:05:31

+1

gu
Guest: Gour
01:06:27
what about CardDav?
je
Jean-Marc Libs (Jyhem)
01:07:06
Status of the Fosdem devroom will be on: https://www.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Main/Events/FOSDEM%202022/DevRoom/Proposal/
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
01:07:15
Thanks JM
gu
Guest: Gour
01:08:28
with CardDav suuport I could get rid of using Baikal to have cals/contacts sync between the phone/desktop/Tiki...
gu
Guest: Gour
01:08:33
:-D
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
01:13:54
I would not give up with Transifex
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
01:14:31
As I wrote we just got Slovak translations via Transifex last month
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
01:14:53
And that user did merge request and I just merged it
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
01:16:05
So there are ways and it would be best if we "finished" the integration so these would be synced automatically as the API exists and it is doable.
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
01:16:45
But I understand almost nobody knows how to work with that.
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
01:17:11
I was surprised as well that we got that contribution via Transifex recently :-)
je
Jean-Marc Libs (Jyhem)
01:19:13

+1

lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
01:19:29
Sorry I am not on mic because it says my connection is terrible so I would be breaking up anyway ;-) I can coordinate with Torsten on that and try to prepare something for the next meeting.
gu
Guest: Ed
01:19:46
Hi all, I use transifex for other project also. I don't know any other tool for translation. If we have any other good tool, I will be glad.
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
01:19:56

+1 Luci, thx

lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
01:20:14
Ah, hi Ed! Ed it was! Thanks for your contribution man :-)
je
Jean-Marc Libs (Jyhem)
01:20:24
Torsten just said his hands will be full with the email situation until next month, so maybe afterwards
gu
Guest: Ed
01:20:30
no problem....
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
01:20:46
Problem of Tiki.org sub-forum solved. We don't have sub-forums anymore.😑
xa
Xavi (as xavidp - admin) (xavidp)
01:21:31
thanks Torsten for the report about successful caldav acces to tiki calendars , and for the nice detailed information in the doc.t.o page, which helped me to use it successfully :-)
ma
Marc Laporte (marclaporte)
01:21:46
Next topic will be https://dev.tiki.org/How-to-Have-Fewer-Bugs-in-Tiki
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
01:22:01
Xavier de Pedro, great that my description already coul be helpful
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
01:23:03
Sorry, I missed it, can you post the url for the caldav ?
ga
Gary Cunningham-Lee (chibaguy)
01:23:29
Thanks for that, jonny.
xa
Xavi (as xavidp - admin) (xavidp)
01:23:38
https://doc.tiki.org/CalDAV
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
01:24:26
Thanks
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
01:24:45
And yes those consent cookies thing is a real pain !
xa
Xavi (as xavidp - admin) (xavidp)
01:24:53
and indeed, the CardDAV equivalent needs some content in a similar fashion (guiding mere mortals on how to use carddav in Tiki), in case it's already usable: https://doc.tiki.org/CardDAV
jo
Jonny Bradley (jonnybradley)
01:27:25
Sorry, i was adding some more bugs 😂
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
01:27:50
😂
ro
rodrigolzd
01:28:05
Bernard expressions as we talk about bugs worry me. (LOL)
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
01:28:39
I'm trying to find perfect examples ;-)
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
01:29:51
we all suffer it ;-)
ro
rodrigolzd
01:37:55
is there a graph of the bug classifications?
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
01:37:57
Or often it is conflict of two features where devs do not test all possible combinations of prefs enabled and disabled
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
01:38:25
Which is understandable with those 1000 of options
je
Jean-Marc Libs (Jyhem)
01:38:26
No graph
gu
Guest: Gour
01:39:01
increase test-coverage!
ro
rodrigolzd
01:39:14
im not a dev but from an admin/support point of view the problem seems to be the same as tech support issues at first.
ga
Gary Cunningham-Lee (chibaguy)
01:40:50
There are definitely patterns in Tiki's bugs: 1) "Neglected features" and things like wikiplugins that few people use/test. 2) New features that aren't tested in all/many instances. 3) ....
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
01:42:19
Or used not much features, important to a number of (typical or potential) paying customers
je
Jean-Marc Libs (Jyhem)
01:42:34
little used features: favorites
je
Jean-Marc Libs (Jyhem)
01:43:01
ckeditor !
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
01:43:29
group(S) tracker field types
gu
Guest: Gour
01:44:26
Marc* +1 simplify, simplify, simplify...the code
ro
rodrigolzd
01:44:28
too many options. less is more
gu
Guest: Gour
01:45:07

+1

ro
rodrigolzd
01:45:53
what is tiki a master of? jack of all traits, master or none?
xa
Xavi (as xavidp - admin) (xavidp)
01:46:37
rodrigolzd "is there a graph of the bug classifications?": yes, let me grab a link for you....
xa
Xavi (as xavidp - admin) (xavidp)
01:46:56
at least, a heatmap-like table display of them
jo
Jonny Bradley (jonnybradley)
01:48:20
brb
ro
rodrigolzd
01:48:24
i agree with Bernard. the simple things in tiki require more effort than other software...
gu
Guest: Gour
01:48:49
marclaporte: lack of tests?
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
01:51:28
agree
ro
rodrigolzd
01:51:57
I think Bernard said features are limited because of the depth and spectrum of the problem the developer of the sees only for himself]
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
01:52:53
"i agree with Bernard. the simple things in tiki require more effort than other software..."

I agree with you too ;-)
gu
Guest: Gour
01:56:02
maygu
Guest: Gour
01:56:37
(due to potential flexibility in Tiki's features=
ro
rodrigolzd
01:57:36
sounds like the problem should be better documented within the tiki project.

if i got this right, some developer finds a problem where he uses tiki and creates a solution only for his situation. in the future, that solution might not be required for his problem anymore. so it wasnt a real tiki issue, it was a particular/personal issue. maybe this cases should not be turned into a tiki feature but tue issues documented and at some point the documented problem turned in a better analyzed issued and then a general solution should be developed into a feature
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
01:57:50
I think @Bernrard is right and I understan Marc, that we need to distinguish wether we have this or that type of bugs, cause there are several types of bugs
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
01:59:52
in my opinion we could gain a lot from standard automatted tests, where we can continuously add more tests for new types of usage we learn about.
gu
Guest: Gour
02:00:48
i believe that Tiki should reduce number of options doing the same or very similar thing when the latter is achievable by e.g. composition of few simpler things
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
02:02:16
Our Tiki default
gu
Guest: Gour
02:04:18
marclaporte: it seems (to me) it is orthogonility problem ;)
ro
rodrigolzd
02:04:19
I think i understand that the issue is really how we look at the root cause, the cause is the reason why a a feature exists. If a single user needs that feature, its not a feature that should be included into tiki. maybe a plugin (I know Marc hates plugins)
ga
Gary Cunningham-Lee (chibaguy)
02:04:24
Another way of categorizing: 1) Bug caused by interaction of user data and Tiki code 2) Bug not directly related to user data
ga
Gary Cunningham-Lee (chibaguy)
02:04:38
...or not involving user data
ga
Gary Cunningham-Lee (chibaguy)
02:05:00
(based on Marc's example of old Tiki site)
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
02:05:40
There are many bugs with wiki syntax but hard to fix so nobody cares about them ;)
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
02:06:00
For example a link in a parenthesis ;)
gu
Guest: Gour
02:06:25
luci: point for going full Markdown ;)
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
02:06:27
it takes the closing parenthesis as part of the resulting link
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
02:06:56
Saša Janiška: heheh
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
02:07:39
Bernard: I agree big time
gu
Guest: Gour
02:07:50
it comes to the point to e.g. use. one syntax everywhere instead of having wikisysntax+html (ckeditor) etc.
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
02:07:58
Bernard: start with basic setup tests and then extent
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
02:08:42
Bernard: once I did understand what automatted tests is or could be, I see that as cruzial, cause we do not have ressources for testing
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
02:08:59
good point Gary -> design tests
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
02:09:00
Sorry guys, the topic takes too long and I will need to leave soon probably...
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
02:09:38
Please if you want to continue on translation we can discuss it next month (leave me a note)
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
02:10:18
whos screen it is ?
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
02:10:33
Oh I see Marc
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
02:10:37
Marc's?
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
02:10:50
yup
je
Jean-Marc Libs (Jyhem)
02:11:19
He has the little "Presentator" icon.
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
02:11:27
What is the difference between unit tests and selenium tests or are Selenium tests just Unit tests with Selenium (sorry for dumb sounding question - just started with the topic)
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
02:11:45
I saw but seems for an instant the screen was synchronised with Jonny's pseaking ;-)
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
02:12:07
ah interface testing -> Selenium
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
02:12:14
Bernard: same :-)
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
02:13:15
We should really start removing "until there is not anything to remove" to achieve perfection 😂
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
02:13:59
Interface tests:
1. what Software to use (need decision)
2. what ressources we need to use this software?
3. who contributes to the team/group to take care on further developing and maintaining this type of tests?
gu
Guest: Gour
02:15:11
duplication!!
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
02:15:20
Marc: right - new further developments too long optional and not finalised ... start as option and replace after 3 versions
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
02:15:31
Removing things that are not 100% working may be too radical. But I see it as "unneeded" dangerous situation to let so-easy to activate Experimental or obsolete things.
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
02:15:39
We dis that right with Bootstrap and wrong with Fullcalendar - I agreee
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
02:16:31
yes, put them into experimental and clearly mark all experimental stuff in admin interface, when experimental is activated.
gu
Guest: Gour
02:16:33
mar
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
02:17:19
And it should be "complicate" to activate experiemental : Are you sure ? (put your admin password)
gu
Guest: Gour
02:18:13
marclaporte: maybe more of pattern of fauly behaviour which causes specific category of bugs, iow. by refactoring/simplifying code, getting rid of unnecessary options, increasing test-coverage...
gu
Guest: Gour
02:18:20

  • faulty

be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
02:18:27
"Experiemental" and "Obscolete"
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
02:19:30
We have footnotes, references. many group type fields, etc...
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
02:19:54
2 or 3 terms of uses and conditions
je
Jean-Marc Libs (Jyhem)
02:20:42
One person's "removing unnecessary options" may very well be another person's "regression" if they found a useful way of using the option
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
02:21:37
Bernard: yes, merging stuff to more robust features instead of one snippet for one task each I think makes a lot of sense (potentially)
But duplication I do not see as actually the real problem
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
02:21:39
Shouldn't using PHP8 with Tiki23 not possible ? (installation)
je
Jean-Marc Libs (Jyhem)
02:21:41
and in other cases, options have been broken for 10 yesrs so they should be removed. It's not simple process
ro
rodrigolzd
02:22:01
php8 is not a problem from an admin point of view.
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
02:22:43
Sometimes it happens in the process... you have installed Tiki but then your OS decides to upgrade the PHP to PHP8
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
02:22:46
My prolem with PHP7.4 / PHP8 is that even when I go down toPHP 7.4 I have dependencies with libraries that are PHP8
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
02:23:15
But I would not call it root cause
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
02:23:22
From memory setup.sh will tell you you are using PHP8 and required is PHP7.4
But not a warning
ro
rodrigolzd
02:23:38
Marc is saying that tiki should go the debian way.... slow
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
02:24:13
Does he?
gu
Guest: JoelDeo
02:25:31
Hi
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
02:25:38
Also by people that are waiting to wait for a fix and ended doing it themselves !
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
02:25:41
self
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
02:26:34
Thank you Torsten 😎
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
02:29:11
Glad to ear !!!!
gu
Guest: Gour
02:29:52
i'd suggest to increase more well-established habits valid for any code - simplifying codebase, getting rid of obsolete/unused features, duplicates, test-coverage etc. and *then* digging deeper into possible patterns of bugs
lu
luciash d' being 🧙 (luci)
02:30:15
Sorry, guys, gotta go. See you next time!
ro
rodrigolzd
02:30:23
ttyl
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
02:30:30
See you !
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
02:32:01
analyse 10x10 bugs - thx Marc - good idea!
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
02:32:26
I'd like to see something like this in Tiki:
"We see you had an error using Tiki, do you want to send a report to our technical team ?"
ro
rodrigolzd
02:33:18
Marc idea might work, but i think the issue is really classification of the features/bugs. sounds like the current system is lacking more tagging/classification
je
Jean-Marc Libs (Jyhem)
02:33:28
Unrelated: I believe sefurl should now work on show2
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
02:33:46
I will leave in 12mn
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
02:33:53
Awesome Jean Marc !
gu
Guest: Gour
02:37:04
as Jonny mentioned earleir, having good test-coverage should catch it!
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
02:40:18
Sorry I will leave you now... When a man got to go, he got to go. 🤗
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
02:40:26
Take care all.
je
Jean-Marc Libs (Jyhem)
02:40:32
bye Bernard and thanks!
ro
rodrigolzd
02:40:32
ttyl
ro
Roberto Kirschbaum (robertokir)
02:40:39
bye Bernard, thanks!
be
Bernard Sfez / Tiki Specialist (Bsfez)
02:41:20
Thank you guys.
And thank you Marc for your energy on this !
gu
Guest: Gour
02:41:20
thanks Bernard!
ro
Roberto Kirschbaum (robertokir)
02:43:02
For quite some time I used to ask that in merge requests, @J-M
ro
rodrigolzd
02:44:06
great idea. even testing tarballs need some template for testing
je
Jean-Marc Libs (Jyhem)
02:44:33
Thanks Jonny
to
Torsten Fabricius (Torsten)
02:44:35
Roberto: sometimes things need some time, but finally get a critical mass earlier or later
ro
rodrigolzd
02:45:12
marc got a minute?
ro
rodrigolzd
02:45:58
ok
gu
Guest: ibrahim
02:46:15
For now not yet


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