Karen Stingel - 15:04 : Hi Geoff
Marc Laporte - 15:04 : Hi everyone!
Karen Stingel - 15:04 : Hi Marc
Geoff Brickell - 15:04 : evening all
Geoff Brickell - 15:04 : or afternoon :-)
Karen Stingel - 15:04 : what about morning Geoff? it's 5 AM tomorrow here
Jean-Marc Libs - 15:04 : evening!
Marc Laporte - 15:04 : https://tiki.org/February+2013+Webinar
Daniel Gauthier - 15:04 : Hello all.  I'm in listening mode
luciash d' being - 15:04 : +1
luciash d' being - 15:04 : from me
Karen Stingel - 15:04 : +5
Daniel Gauthier - 15:04 : +1
Geoff Brickell - 15:04 : +1
luciash d' being - 15:04 : btw, do you also get some audio loss ?
luciash d' being - 15:04 : bits here and there
Jean-Marc Libs - 15:04 : I like it, especially as I need to leave in an hour :-(
Karen Stingel - 15:04 : I seem to be getting a little, I just turned up headphones
Geoff Brickell - 15:04 : sound is good fro me
luciash d' being - 15:04 : great
Karen Stingel - 15:04 : quick question: do we still want the 'perpetual' showcase TIkis I've made available @ <a href="event:http://tikishow.kstingel.com?"> <u>http://tikishow.kstingel.com?</u></a> 
Marc Laporte - 15:04 : Karen: ok, I will add to the list for later
Karen Stingel - 15:04 : np :)
Karen Stingel - 15:04 : nope, can't hear a thing ;)
luciash d' being - 15:04 : i havenßt seen any Allura problem so far recently
Marc Laporte - 15:04 : Jyhem: +1  
luciash d' being - 15:04 : Jean-Marc: just use http
luciash d' being - 15:04 : instead https
luciash d' being - 15:04 : but it is not asking me for sf password anymore anyway, just needed it to insert once and now it somehow remembers
luciash d' being - 15:04 : i did seeral commits already and no ask for password
luciash d' being - 15:04 : *several
luciash d' being - 15:04 : http does not need any password - it is just checkout - one way
luciash d' being - 15:04 : no commit access
luciash d' being - 15:04 : i mean if you are just updating some sites, you should not need commit access there
luciash d' being - 15:04 : so http is fine
Karen Stingel - 15:04 : to update via SVN to a live server, you only need http access
Karen Stingel - 15:04 : you only need https when accessing to commit fixes and stuff
Marc Laporte - 15:04 : https://tiki.org/Migrate+to+Allura
luciash d' being - 15:04 : works for me so i do not need to contact SF to discuss Allura ;)
Jean-Marc Libs - 15:04 : For the record: The one that works for me consistently is the following:
Jean-Marc Libs - 15:04 : svn switch --relocate https://tikiwiki.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/tikiwiki/branches/6.x https://svn.code.sf.net/p/tikiwiki/code/branches/6.x .
Jean-Marc Libs - 15:04 : (note the '.' at the end
Jean-Marc Libs - 15:04 : )
luciash d' being - 15:04 : yay !
luciash d' being - 15:04 : kill that Flash ! :)
Marc Laporte - 15:04 : <a href="event:http://www.bigbluebutton.org/blog/"> <u>http://www.bigbluebutton.org/blog/</u></a> 
Karen Stingel - 15:04 : luciash: +100
Jean-Marc Libs - 15:04 : /me hopes nobody uses IE6 any more :)
luciash d' being - 15:04 : anybody here logged in to BBB with IE6 ? ;)
Karen Stingel - 15:04 : Chrome here (FF fights it)
Guest: omstefanov - 15:04 : Chrome here too
luciash d' being - 15:04 : FF Win 7 here
luciash d' being - 15:04 : (it is just quicker than my favorite Linux box ;))
Jean-Marc Libs - 15:04 : \o/ etherpad functionality !!! :)
Geoff Brickell - 15:04 : FF XP here
Arild Berg - 15:04 : Hi everybody
Marc Laporte - 15:04 : Quick report on TikiFestMuskoka
Marc Laporte - 15:04 : <a href="event:http://tiki.org/TikiFestMuskoka"> <u>http://tiki.org/TikiFestMuskoka</u></a> 
Marc Laporte - 15:04 : <a href="event:http://tiki.org/Admins+Team#Essentials"> <u>http://tiki.org/Admins+Team#Essentials</u></a> 
Jean-Marc Libs - 15:04 : and let's make sure the list remains short :)
Marc Laporte - 15:04 : <a href="event:http://tiki.org/Teams"> <u>http://tiki.org/Teams</u></a> 
Nelson - 15:04 : Hi Everybody, I have a sore throat today so resting my voice. WIll be typing more than talking :)
luciash d' being - 15:04 : hi Nelson !
Greg Martin - 15:04 : Good thinking there Marc, et al
Jonny Bradley - 15:04 : all sounds good Marc, thanks
luciash d' being - 15:04 : why there is no Join/Leave button for Quality, Security and Legal team ? 
Marc Laporte - 15:04 : <a href="event:http://info.tiki.org/Featured+Tikis"> <u>http://info.tiki.org/Featured+Tikis</u></a> 
Karen Stingel - 15:04 : luciash: because we don't want you to leave?
Marc Laporte - 15:04 : <a href="event:http://tiki.org/Consulting+Team"> <u>http://tiki.org/Consulting+Team</u></a> 
luciash d' being - 15:04 : Karen: lol
Nelson - 15:04 : Yes Geoff, since you are one of the more prominent consultants, esp across the atlantic would be great to have your input and participation
Marc Laporte - 15:04 : Nelson: can you explain <a href="event:http://tiki.org/show.tiki.org"> <u>http://tiki.org/show.tiki.org</u></a> next 
Nelson - 15:04 : My throat is really bad today
Jean-Marc Libs - 15:04 : admin & security have mailing-lists
Jean-Marc Libs - 15:04 : not sure people can send mails to them
luciash d' being - 15:04 : Jean-MArc: i think they are not mailing lists, just aliases/forwarders distributed to several people
luciash d' being - 15:04 : ppl can send mail to the address
Nelson - 15:04 : Also, the whole bug reproduction process, whether release or not is not easy to do a lot of time.
luciash d' being - 15:04 : /me trying catch up to stay up-to-date at all his tiki instances maintained :-p
luciash d' being - 15:04 : i thought quick way to create bug reproduce/test profile would be great
luciash d' being - 15:04 : via tiki profiles i thought, but maybe it is not very easy
luciash d' being - 15:04 : some automation like show.tiki.org would be awesome for sure
Arild Berg - 15:04 : How long does it take to fire up a Tiki instance, to report a bug?
Nelson - 15:04 : The firing up of the instance should be pretty quick, 1 2 min
Nelson - 15:04 : 1/2 min
Nelson - 15:04 : but you still have to file a bug the usual way
Arild Berg - 15:04 : that's good
Nelson - 15:04 : and you have to recreate the bug on the test instance
Karen Stingel - 15:04 : would it be possible to 'push' Bug examples to tikishow.kstingel.com so we have a perpetual copy of open bugs?
luciash d' being - 15:04 : will a mail come "your instance is ready" ?
Arild Berg - 15:04 : How many simultenous "test instances" can be run?
Nelson - 15:04 : about 100 no problem
Karen Stingel - 15:04 : I have trunk, br6, br9 + br10 (andc later, br11) permanently avail
Arild Berg - 15:04 : sounds good
Nelson - 15:04 : the "your instance is ready mail", probbaly, it is not difficult to have
Olaf-Michael Stefanov - 15:04 : why not get your heads together, Geoff with his experience and the Marc-Nelson-Pascal idea
Olaf-Michael Stefanov - 15:04 : ... and come up with a join show-site concept
luciash d' being - 15:04 : that would of course not reproduce a "conflict of two features" bugs...
Nelson - 15:04 : push bug examples to "tikishow.kstingle.com": I don't get the question
Nelson - 15:04 : right now the plan is to persist until the bug is open
Olaf-Michael Stefanov - 15:04 : <a href="event:"http://tikishow.kstingle.com/""> <u>"http://tikishow.kstingle.com/"</u></a> is not found? 
Karen Stingel - 15:04 : at present, the show.tiki.org sites are temporary, so examples are lost ... my sites are permanent, so examples are always availalbe
luciash d' being - 15:04 : Karen: afaiu the instance will not close until the bug is closed
Nelson - 15:04 : I mean so long as it stays open
Nelson - 15:04 : but we can persist it longer
Arild Berg - 15:04 : Jonny: the "demo" should remain, until the fix is verified
luciash d' being - 15:04 : Karen: the temp ones are demo.tiki.org
Karen Stingel - 15:04 : I've looked at examples in the past and they've been gone
Olaf-Michael Stefanov - 15:04 : I tend to agree with Geoff. Keeping the fixed bug is good to prevent regressions
Nelson - 15:04 : The whole show.tiki.org discussion has a parallel automated testing discussion and the 2 will help support each other
Nelson - 15:04 : But one is not dependent on the other 
luciash d' being - 15:04 : actually +1 for Karenßs idea to make it decentralized - like anyone could host his own version of show.tiki.org - same as one can host his own profiles site
Nelson - 15:04 : IN order to be cost effective with the testing, the fixed bug needs to be made into a test case, e.g. a selenium (not confirmed that it will be this) case
Olaf-Michael Stefanov - 15:04 : show.tiki.org would need to be a site that lets developers reproduce the bug on a site that many developers have access to 
Nelson - 15:04 : decentralization is interesting, but I am wondering if technically it might be much more work... need to think more and we can discuss
luciash d' being - 15:04 : Nelson: sure, that would be next step but lets keep it on mind maybe
Jean-Marc Libs - 15:04 : I attended an amazing talk at Fosdem: https://fosdem.org/2013/schedule/event/testing_mediawiki/
Jean-Marc Libs - 15:04 : But I just looked up the videos, and it's not there :-(
luciash d' being - 15:04 : Nelson: could be used for developing customized tiki sites for clients
Nelson - 15:04 : it is planned to be used in "beta" for tiki 11
luciash d' being - 15:04 : cool
Olaf-Michael Stefanov - 15:04 : +1
Nelson - 15:04 : we'll be developing i. There will be a separate bbb held to discuss this soon
Arild Berg - 15:04 : How are the different show instances tracked/listed?
Nelson - 15:04 : if you habe any thoughts it shoulkd go to thte wiki page
Karen Stingel - 15:04 : https://tiki.org/show.tiki.org
Geoff Brickell - 15:04 : thanks
Olaf-Michael Stefanov - 15:04 : nelson: which page, <a href="event:http://tiki.org/show.tiki.org"> <u>http://tiki.org/show.tiki.org</u></a> ? 
Nelson - 15:04 : each instance is a unique id, which can be stored in a field in the bug tracker
Nelson - 15:04 : <a href="event:http://tiki.org/show.tiki.org"> <u>http://tiki.org/show.tiki.org</u></a> 
Marc Laporte - 15:04 : can you hear me?
Olaf-Michael Stefanov - 15:04 : to whom does one send a request to set up an instace?
Nelson - 15:04 : Marc, I can't hear
luciash d' being - 15:04 : nope, Marc
Olaf-Michael Stefanov - 15:04 : marc can't be heard, jonny yet
Olaf-Michael Stefanov - 15:04 : yes...
luciash d' being - 15:04 : Marc, u dropped off of listeners
Marc Laporte - 15:04 : ok, brb
luciash d' being - 15:04 : perhaps ?
Jean-Marc Libs - 15:04 : Sorry guys, need to leave now (gotta meet customers)
luciash d' being - 15:04 : i heard some words jonny, but did not got it
luciash d' being - 15:04 : bye Jean-Marc
Olaf-Michael Stefanov - 15:04 : bye jyhem
Karen Stingel - 15:04 : cu jyhem
Jean-Marc Libs - 15:04 : /me suggests a refactoring freeze before releases.
Jean-Marc Libs - 15:04 : final bye bye now :)
Olaf-Michael Stefanov - 15:04 : perhaps we need a special STAR list to "reward" developers who fix lots of bugs
luciash d' being - 15:04 : well, imho it is pretty solid and powerful anyway, despite the bugs
luciash d' being - 15:04 : the trackers
Olaf-Michael Stefanov - 15:04 : ... an incentive system
Jonny Bradley - 15:04 : brb
Nelson - 15:04 : hi
Nelson - 15:04 : did we lose marc?
Jonny Bradley - 15:04 : b
Olaf-Michael Stefanov - 15:04 : seems so
Olaf-Michael Stefanov - 15:04 : he's off the list
Nelson - 15:04 : Anyway, I could talk a bit about testing
Olaf-Michael Stefanov - 15:04 : please do!
Nelson - 15:04 : One of the things is that Alain (not sure who remembers him)
Olaf-Michael Stefanov - 15:04 : I do!
luciash d' being - 15:04 : we do, we do not smoke that shit anymore ;)
Nelson - 15:04 : he will be on sabbatical from his job (end Mar) and so
Olaf-Michael Stefanov - 15:04 : ... that Alain ... does what?
Olaf-Michael Stefanov - 15:04 : ... and so he's looking for things to do?
Nelson - 15:04 : anyway it coincide with my desparate need to have a better testing infrastructure for our tiki sites
  - 15:04 : Welcome to live.tiki.org You can also join in this conference by calling +1-877-SOS-Tiki from a regular phone.
Nelson - 15:04 : Of course Alain's knowledge is more at the higher level, but he can help with creating test cases and so on, so long as someone else sets up the infra
Marc Laporte - 15:04 : back
luciash d' being - 15:04 : great to have u back Marc !
Geoff Brickell - 15:05 : yep
Olaf-Michael Stefanov - 15:05 : One thing that could really help with better testing sites is an easier ways to copy pages, or even who groups of pages from a prod to a dev site and back
Karen Stingel - 15:05 : wb Marc
Nelson - 15:05 : So there will be some action on the testing front to have testing...
Nelson - 15:05 : Yes marc, you were cut off so I jsut started
Nelson - 15:06 : Excellent Geoff
Olaf-Michael Stefanov - 15:06 : +1 from me too
Nelson - 15:09 : I thihnk
Nelson - 15:09 : I would like to push and get infra ready by say July August or something
Olaf-Michael Stefanov - 15:09 : Geoff: Do you have your test/control site in 9.x or in several versions (I thought I heard "trunk")?
Nelson - 15:10 : and then after taht people can start creating/recording tests
luciash d' being - 15:10 : and the show.tiki.org ?
Nelson - 15:10 : show.tiki org will be first
luciash d' being - 15:10 : yep, when you think ?
Nelson - 15:11 : goal for show.tiki.org  is to use it as part of the tiki 11 release process
luciash d' being - 15:11 : May/June ?
Nelson - 15:11 : yes
Nelson - 15:11 : May
luciash d' being - 15:11 : great
Geoff Brickell - 15:11 : Olaf: I have both trunk(11) and 10 - I've almost completed moving all my production sites to 9
Nelson - 15:12 : front end automated testing, in the line of selenium. For example selenium has a firefox plugin that allow you to record a test.
Nelson - 15:12 : basically a sequence of clicks and keyboard input and compare what comes back to what is expecteed
Nelson - 15:13 : maybe show.tiki.org can be used for that
Nelson - 15:13 : yes
Nelson - 15:14 : no, this will not be built into tiki
Nelson - 15:14 : becasuse this is front end testing
Nelson - 15:14 : browsers
luciash d' being - 15:14 : what is a typical test workflow ? does it test only code/syntax errors ? or can it catch security holes, or permission/preference check missing ?
Nelson - 15:14 : tiki tests is code testing
Nelson - 15:14 : both are important, and not mutually exclusive
luciash d' being - 15:15 : allright
Nelson - 15:15 : but generally the latest initiaive is on front-end testing
Marc Laporte - 15:15 : https://tiki.org/Testing+Team
luciash d' being - 15:15 : ok next topic: Karenßs question ?
Olaf-Michael Stefanov - 15:15 : Geoff, but you must have had the same test set for 9.x before you moved your sites off, right?
Geoff Brickell - 15:15 : right
Karen Stingel - 15:16 : cool .... O seem to be the only one using it at present
Olaf-Michael Stefanov - 15:16 : Geoff, so you could contribute your 9.x set right?
luciash d' being - 15:16 : yeah, CKEditor4 looks good
luciash d' being - 15:16 : did not checked it in trunk yet, but checked the CKEditor demos and links
Karen Stingel - 15:16 : possibly I'm the only user because other Devs haven't been aware of it
luciash d' being - 15:17 : Karen: yeah, marketing plays big role nowadays
Karen Stingel - 15:18 : lp doesn't seem to be here ... but I've noticed that the 'vendor' folder after installing Tiki-trunk seems unneccessarily large ...
Karen Stingel - 15:19 : do we need the full Zend package, or would just the librqay be better?
Karen Stingel - 15:19 : excuse typos :)
luciash d' being - 15:20 : Karen: well there was always full Zend package, but now it is handled by the composer, maybe it includes more files
Karen Stingel - 15:20 : is CKEditor planned to be added to composer.json, or left as an svn external?
luciash d' being - 15:20 : Karen: we do not use all Zend stuff but several libs, yes, not sure which ones
Arild Berg - 15:21 : maybe the "full" version should be tried, instead of the "standard" download
Arild Berg - 15:21 : The standard download is in trunk
luciash d' being - 15:21 : <a href="event:http://ckeditor.com/builder"> <u>http://ckeditor.com/builder</u></a> 
Marc Laporte - 15:21 : The current CkEditor 4 integration is based on the "Standard" download package. See <a href="event:http://ckeditor.com/blog/Intro-to-Customizing-CKEditor-4"> <u>http://ckeditor.com/blog/Intro-to-Customizing-CKEditor-4</u></a> for more info. One important passage: "The Standard package doesn’t include plugins like Alignment, Font Size, Color and a few other typical buttons. Why? Because modern websites predefine those things in CSS to avoid low quality content. Users should not "play around" with formatting. Web standards are increasingly more focused on the semantic information of texts. The Standard CKEditor comes with all the necessary tools to create "good web content". The idea is teaching our users about the best way for a "better web", so we made Standard the default option." 
Karen Stingel - 15:21 : I'm in process of mapping Zend libs used :) ... also possibilities for adopting zf2
luciash d' being - 15:22 : hi :)
Jonny Bradley - 15:22 : hi Arild
luciash d' being - 15:23 : this is interesting: <a href="event:http://ckeditor.com/addon/bbcode"> <u>http://ckeditor.com/addon/bbcode</u></a> 
luciash d' being - 15:23 : but is 777 lines of code :-(
Karen Stingel - 15:23 : multiple talkers .. and everyone whispering ... bk in a sec
luciash d' being - 15:24 : we do not have even the Tiki 11 star name yet ;)
luciash d' being - 15:25 : wow, 10 days !
luciash d' being - 15:27 : could not we just shift the months cycle ?
Nelson - 15:27 : other than ckeditor there is not major revamp ongoing is there?
Nelson - 15:27 : the thing is that wysiwyg is probably a multiversion transition
Karen Stingel - 15:30 : I'm away this afternoon, for around a week
Nelson - 15:31 : if we do a quick release now, it is really almost a not very meaningful release, ljust to increment the numbers
Nelson - 15:31 : lol
Karen Stingel - 15:31 : but since I'm mainly tinkering in comments, being away doesn't matter much :)
Marc Laporte - 15:31 : Pascal will create demo.tiki.org/wysiwyg-html/ and demo.tiki.org/wysiwyg-wiki/ and maybe demo.tiki.org/wysiwyg-jison-wiki/ so we can have a stable place to show off issues. We make more than one demo sites because the various modes are mutually exclusive and we need a place to show off issues for each.
luciash d' being - 15:31 : Karen: we will miss you on IRC :)
Arild Berg - 15:32 : What about: demo.tiki.org/wysiwyg-jison-html?
Karen Stingel - 15:32 : luciash: I can always leave it open in Windon't and lurk ;) ... just so you don't feel alone
Karen Stingel - 15:33 : ... or maybe so I don't miss anything lol
luciash d' being - 15:33 : how do we cope with all the new add-ons of CKEditor4 ?
luciash d' being - 15:33 : for example this: <a href="event:http://ckeditor.com/addon/codemirror"> <u>http://ckeditor.com/addon/codemirror</u></a> 
luciash d' being - 15:33 : would not it conflict with our CodeMirror libs ?
Karen Stingel - 15:34 : luciash: I'll check that once I get back ... I'm also trying to track any reported conflicts introduced via composer :)
luciash d' being - 15:34 : tiki.ini
Marc Laporte - 15:35 : To hard code prefs: <a href="event:http://doc.tiki.org/System+Configuration"> <u>http://doc.tiki.org/System+Configuration</u></a> 
luciash d' being - 15:36 : do we use something special or basicali tiki synatx version of <a href="event:http://ckeditor.com/demo#bbcode"> <u>http://ckeditor.com/demo#bbcode</u></a> ? 
luciash d' being - 15:36 : *basicaly
luciash d' being - 15:36 : *syntax
luciash d' being - 15:37 : for the "Use Wiki syntax in Wysiwyg"
Karen Stingel - 15:39 : stepping away briefly ....
luciash d' being - 15:42 : <a href="event:http://ckeditor.com/addons/plugins"> <u>http://ckeditor.com/addons/plugins</u></a> 
Nelson - 15:43 : I always reduce the number of buttoins
Karen Stingel - 15:45 : bk
Marc Laporte - 15:46 : Please see: <a href="event:http://dev.tiki.org/tiki-download_wiki_attachment.php?attId=187"> <u>http://dev.tiki.org/tiki-download_wiki_attachment.php?attId=187</u></a> 
Karen Stingel - 15:53 : can I ask an off-topic question?
luciash d' being - 15:54 : Karen: go ahead
Karen Stingel - 15:54 : is content in /modules/cache safe to delete?
luciash d' being - 15:55 : yes
luciash d' being - 15:55 : clear all tiki cache should empty that
Karen Stingel - 15:55 : cool ... that solves my directory compare issue
Karen Stingel - 15:56 : luciash: doesn't work when I'm mirroring SVNtiki to DEVtiki webroot
Nelson - 15:58 : but, is it too much to ask for people who are running wysiwyg who have some blocker bugs to upgrade to tiki 11 that it is just not going to be fixed before tiki12?
Nelson - 15:59 : let me compare
luciash d' being - 16:01 : +10 for rock solid things
luciash d' being - 16:01 : :)
Nelson - 16:03 : just reduce the buttons problem solved
luciash d' being - 16:03 : a bit of self-promotion: <a href="event:http://tiki.org/blogpost553-Wysiwyg-Editor-Keyboard-Shortcuts-Did-You-Know"> <u>http://tiki.org/blogpost553-Wysiwyg-Editor-Keyboard-Shortcuts-Did-You-Know</u></a> 
luciash d' being - 16:03 : Wysiwyg related ;)
Jonny Bradley - 16:03 : nice, thanks Luci! :)
Nelson - 16:04 : right Jonny
Nelson - 16:04 : makes sense
Nelson - 16:04 : make it a dependency
Arild Berg - 16:04 : What about a question at install time? Wysiwyg or wiki mode editor as default?
Nelson - 16:05 : nice meeting you all! 
luciash d' being - 16:06 : Arild: that sounds too specific... we should promote Wiki mode first maybe ;)
luciash d' being - 16:06 : you could have lot of questions asked at install times, like you want feature X ? Y ? Z ?
Arild Berg - 16:07 : maybe, but I was looking for a WYSIWYG system, when I first tried Tiki
Arild Berg - 16:07 : yes, could be more questions at install time
luciash d' being - 16:07 : Wysiwyg inserting and storing in Tiki syntax would be ideal
luciash d' being - 16:07 : by default
Arild Berg - 16:08 : I need html syntax in the database
Karen Stingel - 16:08 : how do I add topics to the Webinar wishlist?
Geoff Brickell - 16:08 : bye
Nelson - 16:08 : I agree with luci
Nelson - 16:08 : bye