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    • A more friendly "create a new page" option?

    Posted by cgc0202 posts: 102

    In the document page about Using Wiki pages:

    http://doc.tikiwiki.org/tiki-index.php?page_ref_id=23

    ricks99 stated: "The current TIKI concept of how to create a new page is very confusing to new users — you have to already be editing an existing wiki page in order to create a new one. This is (IMHO) very anti-user friendly.

    Indeed, he was quite correct. His suggestions are OK. I finally understood how to do it, but still took me quite sometime to figure out by trial and error.

    The quick_edit option he suggested requires familiarity with the menus and modules, unless it is one of the default module or already incorporated in the Wiki folder (inside the Menu). Moreover, the quick_edit option should not use the Homepage wiki page as the default page.

    The second option about mashed words or use of the My New Page requires a familiarity with the Wiki syntax that you get comfortable with only after a time — because it was quite counter to what you are used to with HTML.

    For example, how do you deal with links that have different content but should appear to have the same link name in a table of contents?

    It was much easier for me to use the Articles section because it has a simple "Submit Article" option. Why can't something as simple as that be made as the initial default page — for creating a new Wiki page. Maybe, it should even come with examples already, and cal it creating your "first trial Wiki page?



    Reads: 3211
    Posted by Gary Cunningham-Lee posts: 4664 Japan

    > In the document page about Using Wiki pages:
    >
    > http://doc.tikiwiki.org/tiki-index.php?page_ref_id=23
    >
    > ricks99 stated: "The current TIKI concept of how to create a new page is very confusing to new users — you have to already be editing an existing wiki page in order to create a new one. This is (IMHO) very anti-user friendly.

    The advantage is that in this way wiki pages are linked; there are no orphan pages. The problem with a "create wiki page form" is that, while it might ease new users' creation of pages, it shifts the problem to one of navigation, finding the created pages again, etc.

    > Indeed, he was quite correct. His suggestions are OK. I finally understood how to do it, but still took me quite sometime to figure out by trial and error.
    >
    > The quick_edit option he suggested requires familiarity with the menus and modules, unless it is one of the default module or already incorporated in the Wiki folder (inside the Menu). Moreover, the quick_edit option should not use the Homepage wiki page as the default page.

    The quick edit module (or using the editpage URL) is handy but means the user is prepared to provide menu links to the page, rely on "last wiki changes" list to find the page again, or use some other navigation mechanism that is, if anything, more difficult than simply putting a pagename/link in an existing known page, it seems to me.

    > The second option about mashed words or use of the My New Page requires a familiarity with the Wiki syntax that you get comfortable with only after a time — because it was quite counter to what you are used to with HTML.

    Wiki syntax is fundamental to a wiki site, so I think the user should be expected to learn it, at least the basics, at the very beginning. Wikis are tool, and new tools have to be learned to be used. The learning curve can be gentle, but it can't be horizontal, and I suggest the first step upward is knowing how to make a link in a wiki page.

    > For example, how do you deal with links that have different content but should appear to have the same link name in a table of contents?
    >
    > It was much easier for me to use the Articles section because it has a simple "Submit Article" option. Why can't something as simple as that be made as the initial default page — for creating a new Wiki page. Maybe, it should even come with examples already, and cal it creating your "first trial Wiki page?

    It'd be easy enough for the new Tiki installation to have a little content on the default ))HomePage((, explaining how to make links and new pages. But I think new users should be encouraged to use conventional wiki syntax to make new pages, not given mechanisms that might just shift the problem or delay necessary learning.

    -- Gary (zukakakina.com)

    Posted by Rick Sapir / Tiki for Smarties posts: 3665 United States

    > > In the document page about Using Wiki pages:
    > >
    > > http://doc.tikiwiki.org/tiki-index.php?page_ref_id=23
    > >
    > > ricks99 stated: "The current TIKI concept of how to create a new page is very confusing to new users — you have to already be editing an existing wiki page in order to create a new one. This is (IMHO) very anti-user friendly.
    >
    > The advantage is that in this way wiki pages are linked; there are no orphan pages. The problem with a "create wiki page form" is that, while it might ease new users' creation of pages, it shifts the problem to one of navigation, finding the created pages again, etc.
    >

    That's why we have bookmarks, my tiki pages, etc. If I create a page via the Quick Edit module, the page will appear in My Tiki section automatically.

    IMHO, the assumption that every page must/should be linked to another page is incorrect. I see no reason why orphan pages are a problem. There was a recent O'Rilley study that showed the vast majority of internet browsers arrive at pages from search engines or saved bookmarks — NOT links from other pages.

    One only has to scan the TW.o forums.... there are 100s of postings asking "how do I create a new wiki page" but I have yet to see a single question asking "how do I find a wiki page".

    Just my $0.02. FWIW, I implemented this exact process on my site (users make new pages via the quick edit module — not from existing wiki pages) and have had no problems from users. To the contrary, most users are happy with how easy it is to create a new page: simply type the name and click CREATE.

    [snip]


    > It'd be easy enough for the new Tiki installation to have a little content on the default ))HomePage((, explaining how to make links and new pages. But I think new users should be encouraged to use conventional wiki syntax to make new pages, not given mechanisms that might just shift the problem or delay necessary learning.

    Personally, I think the quick_edit module should be turned on, by default, in a new TIKI install.


    -Rick

    Posted by Gary Cunningham-Lee posts: 4664 Japan

    > > > In the document page about Using Wiki pages:
    > > >
    > > > http://doc.tikiwiki.org/tiki-index.php?page_ref_id=23
    > > >
    > > > ricks99 stated: "The current TIKI concept of how to create a new page is very confusing to new users — you have to already be editing an existing wiki page in order to create a new one. This is (IMHO) very anti-user friendly.
    > >
    > > The advantage is that in this way wiki pages are linked; there are no orphan pages. The problem with a "create wiki page form" is that, while it might ease new users' creation of pages, it shifts the problem to one of navigation, finding the created pages again, etc.
    > >
    >
    > That's why we have bookmarks, my tiki pages, etc. If I create a page via the Quick Edit module, the page will appear in My Tiki section automatically.

    This works fine for the author of the new page, but doesn't help other people find it.

    > IMHO, the assumption that every page must/should be linked to another page is incorrect. I see no reason why orphan pages are a problem. There was a recent O'Rilley study that showed the vast majority of internet browsers arrive at pages from search engines or saved bookmarks — NOT links from other pages.

    I read that study too, and agree that a lot of people get to a particular site from a Google or other search. But once at a site, local navigation is essential. I don't have a study to back this up, but personally I often use a search engine to zero in on a page but then (depending on the search and so on) browse around within the site for related or more pertinent info. Anyway, despite that study, I haven't noticed many major web sites jettisoning their menus and navbars.

    > One only has to scan the TW.o forums.... there are 100s of postings asking "how do I create a new wiki page" but I have yet to see a single question asking "how do I find a wiki page".

    That's a good point.

    > Just my $0.02. FWIW, I implemented this exact process on my site (users make new pages via the quick edit module — not from existing wiki pages) and have had no problems from users. To the contrary, most users are happy with how easy it is to create a new page: simply type the name and click CREATE.

    That's terrific, and it's probably good to be sure people are aware of that procedure. But I think links in pages are also more or less an essential part of web pages, wiki or otherwise, and people should know how easy it is to create new pages this way, as this is a wiki fundamental.

    > [snip]
    >
    >
    > > It'd be easy enough for the new Tiki installation to have a little content on the default ))HomePage((, explaining how to make links and new pages. But I think new users should be encouraged to use conventional wiki syntax to make new pages, not given mechanisms that might just shift the problem or delay necessary learning.
    >
    > Personally, I think the quick_edit module should be turned on, by default, in a new TIKI install.

    Something to think about, for sure.
    >
    >
    > -Rick

    -- Gary - zukakakina.com

    Posted by vishal posts: 32

    > > > > In the document page about Using Wiki pages:
    > > > >
    > > > > http://doc.tikiwiki.org/tiki-index.php?page_ref_id=23
    > > > >
    > > > > ricks99 stated: "The current TIKI concept of how to create a new page is very confusing to new users — you have to already be editing an existing wiki page in order to create a new one. This is (IMHO) very anti-user friendly.
    > > >
    > > > The advantage is that in this way wiki pages are linked; there are no orphan pages. The problem with a "create wiki page form" is that, while it might ease new users' creation of pages, it shifts the problem to one of navigation, finding the created pages again, etc.
    > > >
    > >
    > > That's why we have bookmarks, my tiki pages, etc. If I create a page via the Quick Edit module, the page will appear in My Tiki section automatically.
    >
    > This works fine for the author of the new page, but doesn't help other people find it.
    >

    Personally, when I check an article out at Wikipedia, I use either their search engine, or the category navigation on the main page (science, technology, politics, religion etc.).

    I have never tried it, but shouldn't the TW search engine find the orphan pages fine?

    Secondly, it is always a good idea to categorize the created pages using the TW Categories feature, so that the users can get to a resource that way.

    Vishal

    Posted by gluckfs posts: 40

    But ... what about a Wiki that has a structure?

    In my world, I would like a user to be able to create a page and place it in the appropriate place in the structure at the same time. The Quick Edit module does not do that. It creates an orphaned page.

    Is it reasonable to have a user create a page and put it in a structure at the same time? Is this advisable or should someone else be responsible for placing orphaned pages in a structure.

    I envision that as the Wiki grows and pages are created but not categorized, there will be a huge number of orphan pages. Yes.... they may be able to be found using tags and searching by content but shouldn't you be able to browse through a structure to see pages?

    What is a recommended way for a novice to create a page and have it placed in a structure?


    Posted by mlpvolt posts: 9

    hi cgc

    I would reccomend having find/create search module prominently displayed.

    The important thing i've found is to restrict the search engine to page/object titles only. (not only does it keep your site from bogging down, but the current full text search in tw is virtually useless)

    Just make sure your plugin is such that if it doesn't find the page, it offers to create it.

    another complimentary method is to use your address bar as a find feature itself.

    eg. goto

    http://openpolitics.ca/any+topic (pluses for spaces)

    and if the page does not exist, it will create it for you.


    MLP