Development

Posted by MehMehMeh 14 Feb 2004 16:00 GMT-0000 posts: 10 ☆ ☆ ☆

Also, could someone explain this fetish for blocks that PHPNuke/PostNuke/Tiki users have.

It seems developers have this fetish side blocks, which really annoies me. Do we need all that information thrown into our face all at once ? I'm sure we dont as it's on every page. Users are overwhlemed with information, which only scares people from using the site

Posted by Philippe Cloutier 14 Feb 2004 21:04 GMT-0000 posts: 1001 ☆ ☆ ☆

Hi ))MehMehMeh((,
you can remove modules, checkthe link at top (in moreneat). If you're talking about default ones on tw.o, you can talk to admins here about it on the IRC channel, or open something in the tracker about the site although it's pretty much unmaintained 😊

About the rest, maybe some places are more appropriate for announcing your intention to start a new CMS. I'm not a coder and I don't know much about other CMSs but maybe you're right thinking that only you realized the truth yet about CMS-programming.

If you can point me to where you red the mathematical demonstration of 243 being the minimum queries number needed, I'll be glad to fix that. If you finally get this infinite time and concentration, be sure to help us, we could badly use it 😁

If I can talk for a part of the community, I know me and Chealer9 aren't going to help in a new CMS's development, but I will without fault as soon as you post back that the magic vision you have can do as much as Tiki in 242 queries. But I'm wondering what will come first : the removal of your post by Tiki admins trying to lure our users or your announcement about beating Tiki 😐

Good luck

Posted by MehMehMeh 15 Feb 2004 00:18 GMT-0000 posts: 10 ☆ ☆ ☆

Well, yes I know you can remove modules, like you can in PostNuke or any other similar CMS.

However my point is it should not take 200-250quieres to show the blocks and module content of this page ! Just look at the fotter of this page and see that. A page with all the blocks like thins should not take >40 queries at the most if it was properly programmed. If someone can justify why all these queries are needed, I would be happy, however I know that no one will, because there is ***no way*** they can be justified, because once someone explains what each query did, they'd probably soon realise that many of these queries can be removed. As may realise, the 243 does vary a little between 200-250, so there is no hard and fast formula. However it doesn't take a genius to realise that it's just not right to use all those queries, it just make the CMS slow and bulky.

I'm not the only person who has realised that Open Source PHP CMS's atm are poop in general. There are many other developers on Sourceforge who I have contacted who think the same.

I certainly will prove that something similar can be done with less queries, given a bit of time. Personally given infinite time and concentration, I'd rather work on a new CMS project with a few developers who know what they are doing than try and clean up a CMS like this, as Tiki is just far too badly designed to allow for it to be cleaned up without a major reworking of it's code at every level. It's a shame really because Tiki does have a huge number of modules, and it's ideal of being able to be a feature rich CMS is a great idea. However somewhere along the line, the lack of strategy, planning and evaluation has made Tiki a messy project that follows in the foot steps of the *Nukes, which is a shame.

Fair enough I was luring people away from tiki if they were to help work on another CMS, however, I doubt it would make much difference because I doubt there will be enough talented coders reading this post that would email. If tiki admins are against the idea of that, they can edit my post so the bit is omitted. However if they delete the post, it will only mean they just simply don't give a damn about working on a system that is efficient, and just makes them ignorant by ignoring what their target audience/users have to say. Sure enough it will happen. However, if they edit out the post and listen to the rest of what I am saying, maybe they will think twice and make an effort to work on producing much better code. This project has nearly 400 developers working for it. I'm sure if a a bunch the better coder came up with a new design strategy and assigned the task of coding it to all the other developers, I'm very certain, with in a few weeks, they could make something a lot faster, cleaner and more futureproof (i.e. using good OOP design to make code reuseable, smaller etc). I have good set of ideas in my brain I am putting to UML for a CMS that would produce something as functional as Tiki but at the same time faster and probably EVEN MORE flexible/powerful.

As for the blocks. I'm sure removing some on this site will speed it up, and may contribute a little to reducing the silly number of queries on the database. The blocks are repeated on every page, and once you've seen them once it's just a waste of time, and bandwidth displaying them on every page as clutter.

Posted by dmitrym 11 Mar 2004 17:59 GMT-0000 posts: 2 ☆

Wow.
I think you're complaining way too much. Quite possibly Tiki is not 100% efficient. Or even 50% efficient. Why don't you check out the cvs version and see if you can help speed it up. Instead you produce a long rant. Vision changes, new ideas come up and software becomes better (hopefully).

This is open source, you're free to use it, or not. Up to you. But putting down someone's work is pretty low I think. There's a difference between constructive crtiricism and being an ass.

Posted by MehMehMeh 14 Mar 2004 00:54 GMT-0000 posts: 10 ☆ ☆ ☆

QUOTE
__

I think you're complaining way too much. Quite possibly Tiki is not 100% efficient. Or even 50% efficient. Why don't you check out the cvs version and see if you can help speed it up. Instead you produce a long rant. Vision changes, new ideas come up and software becomes better (hopefully).

_

Well, if it was just a code related issues, I would be more than happy to help out, and patch up things on the CVS. However, it seems to me that Tiki will never be efficient until they change the design of it. I'm not just talking about speed here, there are conceptual issues I disagree with here in the way it handles content. to me, if Tiki was be a great project as a piece of code as well as and end product for others to use, I think it's ***design*** needs changing.

I think this is the trouble with so much open source software, escpecially in thinks like this, PostNuke, and PHP Nuke. Each project has a really good vision for a good project, and they have coders capable of making this vision a reallity. However the bit in the middle, the design just seems to be lacking to me. I have my own idea of how a CMS/Portal should work, and I am working on it as a project myself. I'm still planning and designing it, and I don't want to dive into coding until I'm truely happy with the design and feel that everything is as efficient as possible.

Since upgrading this site to 1.8, there do seem to be a few less SQL queries, but it's still a lot of queries.

I'm not putting down someones work. I'm questioning the fact why there is so many queries and why the system is so resource intensive. OK, fair enough, I haven't been very polite about it, but it is the harsh reallity. I'm just saying if there was a bit more thought about the design of the product, Tiki would be a much better system, and won't be as limited as it is (for instance people can tell these days if Tiki or *nuke is used to make a page).

I know software is never going to be 100% effiecent, however Tiki is far too resource intensive.

Posted by Simon Jester 11 Aug 2004 20:36 GMT-0000 posts: 6 ☆ ☆

Remarks about the OP's long, whiney rant aside... Is anyone going to answer his question about why TikiWiki requires so much database overhead just to generate a page containing a forum thread?

Posted by Damian Parker 11 Aug 2004 22:41 GMT-0000 posts: 2881 ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

Remove them! they are optional through Admin->Modules!!

Damian

Posted by Terence? 14 Aug 2004 07:23 GMT-0000 posts: 71 ☆ ☆ ☆

You're lucky. I'm using 643 database queries to load this page 😑

If you have any ideas of how to improve performance without jumping into Tiki version 3 or something, please let us know on the development mailing list.

Posted by jamesoftopiya 21 Aug 2004 14:40 GMT-0000 posts: 175 ☆ ☆ ☆

Hey;

Just for fun I removed all the Modules from the layout. All I see is the log in and app menu.

Well gee guess what? Now I am getting 368 queries! WOW
With them I am getting 450 or so.
So although I was expecting this to help it made little difference.

But what can I say, TW still rules!

James