Posted by asllearner 07 Sep 2010 19:15 GMT-0000 posts: 26

well, gary. I understand what you are saying, and as should be evident from just about everything I've posted, my tongue was (too) firmly placed in my cheek during my rant...

But here's the punchline: I was using the tables from code on a documentation page! (Far be it from me to actually compose any code on my own, when stealing is so much more cleverer.) I don't remember which, but if I do I will be sure to pass on the slap on the wrist ➡️❗😉

seriously, I appreciate the nod to nice netiquette, and the valiant guardianship of the codes of codable coding, especially in the face of my undeserved mockery, which was not aimed at you, but at "those who take these things seriously" (unless that is you, in which case I am in deep doo doo), especially since I am a reasonably intelligent guy who can't quite understand why presenting "rows and columns of tabular data" is ok, as long as the tabular data is not itself important enough to say, include in a table (yikes) of contents. I know this is just due to my general and intentional ignorance of the finer points of HTML etc, and of some sophisticated theorizing by very intelligent people about the nature of information and so on. (The way best practices changes so quickly these days, ordinary people like you and I (hahahahahahahaha) really don't stand a chance). Theory is wonderful, but if the theory doesn't jibe with common sense, I tend to give points to common sense. And of course, my common sense is someone else's nonsense.
(I know hammers are supposed to be held at the bottom, but if I get a better grip from the top, is it my fault or the hammer's?)

For example, it appears a table of types of content...one row for each type (blog, forum, wiki) is taboo though a table of names of content is benighted. But for me, it's a short and slippery hop from one to the other. I see that I can accomplish the same with a div of divs, but what is the difference (shouldn't that be true vice versa, too)? By using divs of divs, and then having to create various classes to identify my positioning so it looks like a table, to my mind, is taking a structure that is more suited for linear information IMHO (a division) and fooling it into behaving like a tabular one. I just happen to think the powers that be may have gotten this one wrong. I get that html and css are different, presentation versus structure (not in that order!). But using a table is quite natural. And coding should be natural. So I think what is true, is that, in the end, presentation and structure sometimes are not as mutually extractable as would appear at first blush. After all people have been using tables to present data for many purposes, more than just lists of numbers, for a long time before computers came about. And if I were presenting this page via a different medium, aka paper, I (that is me, not necessary anyone else) would probably think of it as a table, not a series of divisions. Or better yet, a combination of the two: table on the outside, division on the inside. This is where the problem came in, I believe. If div on the outside is good, why not the other way round? But, as you said, standards haven't quite caught up to what people actually try to do. It may be the standards that are behind, not the people. As you suggested, even the standards people haven't found the true ultimate model...they haven't really understood information the way it already exists intuitively for some people, but rather are stuck (by the nature of the beast) on what they think computers can handle on the one hand, and on a particular set of axioms/design principles - a very good one, but not everyone's cup of tea, or as inviolable as would often appear, on the other. But as Riemmann and Lobachevski, and later Godel, have ably showed, your system is only as good as your axioms.

Or, as is more likely, I just haven't gotten the idea everyone else has. I guess I am just behind the times. He who laughs last probably didn't get the joke.

All that being said and done, be sure that at some point, I will take to resetting my page in lovely little divs, all in a row. I actually like very much how the div within a tabular layout turned out (it has an offkilter souciance that I find terribly appealing), and I wonder if I will be able to create the same effect (to do intetionally what happens by chance...more skill that I have), but maybe it will be easier than I suspect. Or by then I will have found another charming constellation of design to admire. Thanks for the push, and for the sympathetic replies.

Sorry for the lengthy reply...one good turn deserves another, eh.

Respectfully,

david